Am I out of my mind?

[BigChief]

Looking for some insight with this one...

My company does alot of tube and pipe bending... among other things. For years I have always thought about making our own tooling. We spent about 5K for a set of dies that only does 1 thing...

Just for kicks, what am I looking at if I wanted to produce tooling like this (shown below). No experience with a mill... Tons of experience in other areas.

What kind of equipment would I be looking at? I see mills for 10K... Models, Brands, etc...

Whats the average learning curve if this is all I wanted to do?

Am I way off on this one?

Thanks for any direction.

[harryn]

Hi, I am not an expert, but I will throw some basics on the table FWIW. I am sure others will throw in their ideas.

Let's suppose you want to use a NEW Haas mill to do the work
- For the mill and setting it up - about 100K
- Tooling for specific tasks - about 15K
- Software for designing about 15k
- Quality experienced machinist about 80K year including overhead, benefits

Can you go cheaper- sure - maybe 1/2 of that if you shop carefully.

You might even find a machinist locally that is willing to set up a shop in your building and exchange rent for parts, depending on if you have that much room.

I think the main driving force for bringing machining in-house is for more rapid turn around and quick testing of ideas. It is hard to justify internal capability on a pure cost savings aspect. Of course, that has not stopped many hobbiest from buying and building mills and cnc routers.

[Drassk]

The first piece is cake on a manual mill.

The other two are pretty much CNC work and not trivial work, either, so you'd need a good mill and there would be a big gap between getting started and being able to make those parts.

[Caprirs]

There are many benefits and many pitfalls.

On the plus side:
- as mentioned, you can implement ideas and tools much quicker by making them in house instead of being tied to an outside vendor's schedule.
- if you are making a lot of these dies, you can make them for less money in house, even potentially selling your dies to other shops that do similar work.
- when not making the dies, you have a mill that can make other parts and possibly add additional services to your customers.
- once the first die is made, making additional pieces is fairly straight forward.

On the pitfall side:
- if your machinist screws up, you get to pay him to make the piece again. By comparision, outsourcing puts that burden on your vendor. No matter how many times the vendor screws up, you only pay him once.
- if the machinist or machine makes a mistake, the very expensive mill/tooling/fixturing can be damaged requiring thousands of dollars to repair along with substantial down time of the machine. Such things can vaporize any "savings" the machine was supposed to provide.
- if the machinist leaves your company, how easily can he be replaced? Not all machinists know all controls on all machines. The machine can sit unproductive for a significant length of time until the new guy is up to speed and proficient. During that time, you're back to your dependence on outside vendors.

As harryn pointed out, the machine is only one aspect of the combination. Don't forget the annual software upgrades on the CAD/CAM package, the PC to do the programming on, coolant, consumable tool bits, heat treat charges for your finished pieces, way lubricant, inspection equipment, etc.

Those pieces pictured are deceptive methinks. Although not "feature rich", they are likely more difficult to make than they might seem at first glance.

[flick]

Those pieces pictured are deceptive methinks. Although not "feature rich", they are likely more difficult to make than they might seem at first glance.

I made my own set of bending dies - 1.75" tube, 7" radius.

I bought next set.

[BigChief]

You guys are clearing my head up on this... Big Thanks!

I've got 3 equipment operators now, none of which have ever touched a mill though. I didnt plan on hiring a 4th to be honest.

100K for the mill... You lost me when you added the 2nd "0".

The tooling we use is not really consumable the bend dies are pretty strong (going on 3 years now with 1 set)... the clamps can age, but not to fast. Prototype work is not really what we would need it for... Time is not an issue, takes about 2-3 weeks for a set now, which we can deal with.

The main thing I wanted to accomplish was saving money on the tooling. I'm starting to appreciate my 5K tooling purchases now...

Just for kicks... When I see these mills for 10K-20K... what are they typically used for?

Thanks again for the input guys,

[harryn]

I think of a $ 10 K mill as suitable for low / medium volume work on Al and similar soft materials. Frankly I had forgotten about the fact that your parts are probably some kind of tool steel that needs heat treatment when I started listing the costs.

I do some projects where turn around is a big deal, or I have a part that just needs a few minor changes (like an extra bevel or tapped hole). If I had a lot of money, I would be tempted to buy a mill, but I am still not sure that I could do it faster (and certainly not as well) than taking to a local shop.

There is a lot to be said for developing a relationship and regular business with a local shop with capabilities that might come in handy. Same concept as having a good car mechanic you can trust.

[Drassk]

You can get a used Fadal that'll do you well for a bit over $20K, or a bit under if you find the right bankruptcy sale

Trick with buying a used mill is that the costs add up pretty quick if you can't fix a used mill when it breaks