New to Mazak and need a little help

[somo]

As the title says, I have been hired by a shop that has TONS of manual equipment (knee boring vertical and horizontal mills, lathes, grinders, drill presses, etc) and 2 CNC mills. Both are Mazaks and both are fairly old. One is a 1994 cat40, the other is a 1987 cat50. They are used less then 1 day a week and programmed using the Mazak's controller. There is only one guy in our shop that know how to use these machines and he has no idea what G-code programing is so his programs are basic at best.

Now, some background on me. I have a Haas mill in my garage, legal editions of SolidWorks and MasterCAM X2, and a fairly good understanding of G-code programming. Over the past 7 years or so I have taught myself to machine and have become pretty good at the CAD/CAM side, designing, CNC, setup and fixturing for odd shapes and small parts, and quite a bit of 3D milling but all with SolidWorks, MasterCAM, and my Haas. I have a post processor in MasterCAM that works perfectly with my Haas so from creating a part, laying out tool paths, and cutting a part to within .001 at home has become fairly routine. Now, on to my problem.

I have been stuck manually machining parts for 3 months because I am not familiar with Mazak or its control. Both machines have a 232 port and a 2.5 floppy drive so I thought "Hey, I can drip feed from my PC or upload via disk" but I am only familiar with my setup at home which flows like this...

designed in SolidWorks and saved as a sldprt file
opened in MasterCAM X2 and tool paths laid down
saved off as a NC file which is transferred to a USB flash drive
flash drive inserted into the USB port on the side of my Haas controller
MDI opened and the NC file called up
part ran
happy guy has a new part

This is all second nature to me now because I have been doing it for 4+ years and am very comfortable with it. My problem is, I would like to do the same with the Mazak's at work but am at a loss for where to start. Here are my questions...

Would drip feeding via the 232 port be best or transferring files via the 2.5 floppy drive work best?

Where do I find a post processor for MasterCAM X2 that will work with the Mazaks?

Will the Mazak's except just plain G-code programming and if so, how to I access it?

I know these are probably stupid questions but I am finding out that I am quite ignorant with CNC outside of the bubble (SW, MCx2, Haas) I built for myself but want to learn more. I cannot learn from anyone at work because my LIMITED knowledge is vastly more then the most experienced guy at the shop I work at.

Thanks for the help and please let me know if my rambling make sense or not

[txcncman]

Why don't you just learn the Mazatrol? Should only take about a day to learn the basics. 3 at the most. This is a way to help you break out of your bubble. Just bite the bullet and do it. I never "wanted" to learn Anilam, Bandit, Centroid, Fagor, ServoII etc. But I know the more I know, the more experience I have, the more valuable I am.

I would not rely on drip feeding unless your machine memory is smaller than your programs.

Ask for MasterCam post processors in the MasterCam forum or on eMasterCam. If no one has one to share, ask for help modifying a current post processor to output the needed code. This sort of implies, you have to have good working samples of code or you have to learn how to write good code for the Mazaks.

There is no such thing as "plain G-code". Some of the basics work in nearly all machines, G00, G01, G02, G03, etc. Where you really get crossed up is with M-codes (miscellaneous/machine function codes) and canned cycles.

[somo]

Thanks. I want to learn Mazatrol and have been reading the instruction books (which read HORRIBLY) to familiarize myself with that way of programming. There are three reasons I want to integrate my SolidWorks and MasterCAM knowledge.


First, my boss (the owner of the company) has mentioned that there is some 3D milling jobs that he could pick up if he had a way and a person to run them. I am quite sure these Mazaks are unable to handle that size or complexity of file in its internal memory so the only other option is a drip.

Second, I am so comfortable using this software that it seems a shame to toss it out the window. I have seen how long it takes to program even simple drill and facing programs with Mazatrol and I know I can do it 10 times faster sitting at a PC with MasterCAM and dripping it in.

Third, I am in school right now getting my Drafting-Design and Manufacturing Tech degree so utilizing software in the workplace now and learning how to integrate will help me both now and after I get my degree.

One other side issue is this. All of the other guys I work with are between 50 and 75 years old and have been spinning the wheels since before I was born (I am in my mid 30's). They are AMAZING machinists and have manual skills I can only dream of some day learning. On the down side, I know there are MANY operations we do on a daily basis that could be done way faster and more precisely by utilizing all the tools we have at our disposal.

[txcncman]

Seems like you have pretty good reasoning and intelligence. I have a hard time believing you could out program me on Mazatrol with MasterCam on simple 2-1/2 D milling jobs though. It might be close, but probably not that close. Conversational programming such as Mazatrol does have its place. You are the guy in the hot seat and have to make the final call. Mazatrol documentation is pretty spotty. My impression is the Japanese guys that write the original manuals in Japanese are not machinists, they are engineers. And then the guys that translate those manuals into English are not machinists either, they were English majors in college. They have improved over the years, but your machines and manuals are not that new.

Certainly you should use the more powerful technology to help your employer be more profitable. But think of what is more profitable at the same shop rate, 40 machine/man hours of 2-1/2 D milling each week, or 25 machine/man hours of 3 D surface milling each week. Unless you vary your shop rate accordingly, 2-1/2 D wins out. So, I would not push too hard in one direction or another. Parts is parts.

I would definitely consider going the offline programming route. If the spindle is not turning, most shops are not making money. You might want to look into the MazakCam software as a help there. And yes, by all means use your MasterCam for 3 D surfacing and output G-code. Again, the Mazatrol is mostly good for 2-1/2 D stuff, hole patterns, perimeter milling, and pocketing.

[Wolfpower]

Somo, do yourself a favor and forget about learning mazatrol or any other included with the machine garbage! This stuff is included with machines as a way to make the machine move around and make some chips as soon as some new to cnc guy drops the new machine one his floor. Salesman gimmick! I have a Mazak integrex, other mazaks and haas machines,5axis. and wasted 2 days of my life at mazatrol class. All of this Machine programming is very limited especially as the parts get more complex (3D)(5axis). Just keep learning how to use the cad cam combo you are using and become a master at that. This is why.... You can master what you have and make that work on ANY machine. You just need the correct post processor. Imagine you quit that job and end up at a shop with mori or some other machines, are you then going to start over and learn that garbage too? No, waste of time!!! It will take getting the right machine perameters set up but you can make the old mazaks work like your haas in your garage. Once you get the process figured out you will be able to out perform ANYONE who uses mazatrol or any other " conversational programming". The way I see it now is that this stuff like mazatrol, it is only for the shop floor type person who will never progress past simple 2D programming. Don't get me wrong, there is a place for this stuff, but from what you have created in your garage, you are obviously above that low level shop floor programming.

[MrMazak]

There are thousands of Mazak, Hurco etc shops in this world that never use code at all and make money, so saying it's a waste of time to learn it is your opinion but not necessarily the best for eveyone. To dismiss conversational programming out right is a mistake. Learn all you can about other methods. It sounds like your shop is perfect for mazatrol since it is used only one day a week. But in the end whats works for you is the best solution. Good luck.

[Wolfpower]

You are correct, it is only my opinion based on wanting to be able to program anything and everthing. Conversational programming will make you money but has limitations. It is good for the beginner just entering into the world of cnc. It is also good for shops that do simple work as their main business and is very fast if you know how to ise it. But somo sounds like he has a good knowledge of solidworks/ mastercam/ nc g code way of doing things. I guess what ever fits and or gets the job done is what you should use.

[somo]

I want to learn Mazatrol but I DO NOT want to use this as my main programing system. I learned the Haas conversational when I bought my mill and learned a little about the Hurco programing at a friend of mines shop. All of these systems seem good for those who do not know how to program manually or have access to CAD/CAM software or the experience and skill to utilize them.

Anyway, what I really need is a post processor for Mazak for MCx2 SP2 and a description on how to drip feed these mills. My reseller is a d-bag because I do not want to update (read spend $1,500.00) ever 12 months and have to re learn an new CAM software. I would totally be willing to create my own post but I have no idea where to start. I have all the M codes for these mills saved off and a sample ISO program from the Mazak instruction manual. I will learn Mazatrol but after seeing the programs Mazatrol kicks out, I know I can smoke them with my PC and MasterCAM when it comes to time. I am not sure if it is just the age of the machine or the programmer but 20+ minutes to cut a 1.25" wide, 7.25" long, .3" deep pocket in 4140 seems ridiculous.

[psharp1]

If your machine has ISO/eia programming along with Mazatrol, you can use your mastercam to write the programs. On the other hand, the Mazatrol is basicly canned cycles much as you would find in ISO programming. The differance is, they all work together. They automatically do your comp. If you are using Master Cam, one page with the Mazatrol can easly equal four to five pages from Master Cam unless you have a superior post processer that converts to canned cycles. The plus about Master Cam is the time it takes to write a really complicated milling program, that is if you do not know how to write ISO G code by hand. The minus side is the programs are long and usually have to run them by DNC. The other minus side is I used to specialize in taking away jobs that were programmed with Master Cam because they took too much time. PSharp1

[psharp1]

By the way, a mill cut as you have discribed should not have taken over five minutes in 4140 if you know what you are doing and how to use the program to your advantage. PSharp1

[TDCMS]

FYI Mazatrol is awesome for a lot of jobs.
Drilling milling and so on not so good at doing profiles or 3d stuff I use both Mazatrol and cad/cam programs to run mine.
Right now I am working on drip feeding for a 3d job (my first time do so)
You can enter g codes as well i don't.
So what I am saying simple milling and drilling I can program faster with mazatrol than you can draw it adj program in master cam (job # name ect) down load to machine test run and so on.
I will have made many parts by this time.
But when it comes to 3d profiling in 2d Cad/cam is the only way to go.
That said learn it all you can never stop trying to do it faster better tricker thats what makes this so much fun.

[psharp1]

If you insist on drip feeding any machine, you must first learn to reconfigure your post processers so they do canned cycles. If you know how to do macros in G code, it shouldn't be a problem making the post processor. This should reduce the program to a size you do not need to drip feed (DNC).

on the other hand

When writing a new program in the machine and it gives you the option of ISO/EIA or Mazatrol than you have both. Either way the machine will take the Mazatrol G code. Post process it so it automatically converts into the Mazatrol G Code format. As it loads it will automatically come up as a Mazatrol Program.

If you want to get fancy, you can post process it to a data base such Excel and let it convert it to Mazatrol format. That is what the machine does anyway.