Mazak Mazatrol controller prices?

[Loco112]

Has anyone here ever priced a new Mazatrol Nexus controller to retrofit to your older Mazak VMC?

What were the numbers and how competitive was it with; Fanuc, Siemens and the other market leading controller mfg'ers?

Loco112

[jimiscnc]

My guess is that it would be impossible, due to Mazak Corporate policy.

FWIW

-jim

[RGeo]

I don’t think you can do it. I worked for Mazak, ending in early 2009. Here are a few obstacles to retrofitting your control:
1. Usually when Mazak develops a new controller, they also change the communication protocol used to interact with the various boards, whether they are servo axis control, ancillary motion, and or I/O. The Matrix Nexus is no different. Of course they want to use the newest and best available technology for the new machine.
2. The standard ladder logic for, say a 3 axis vertical machining center is wholly different than the ladder for a turning center. Similarly, the ladder for a newer 3 axis vertical machining center is quite removed from a machine whose controller is two versions older. Trust me; even people who are skilled with standard industrial PLC’s scratch their heads when looking at a full blown Mazak ladder. There is just a lot more going on in the ladder than you might guess. Printed, it would likely be two reams of paper.
3. There are literally thousands of parameters that are specific to a particular model machine, and it likely took teams of engineers months, if not longer, to come up with the baseline settings for these parameters when the machine was first designed. Keep in mind that the physical components were first designed to work together. This should illustrate how difficult it would be to make a new control operate a machine that it was not specifically designed to operate.

I could write a few pages on the specifics, but just know that if Mazak didn’t specifically make a retrofit consisting of ladder, parameters, wiring diagrams, boards and cables, you are not going to get one to work with your older machine. Instead of installation, think design and development level stuff. Even if they did make a retrofit, it would take a field engineer to do the work, and I’m guessing it would take about 4 weeks at $150/hr labor + parts.

Mazak sells new machines, there are companies out there that do retrofits, but depending on the complexity of your machine it can take from 1 to 5 weeks just in labor. Some really complex machines, with large tool carrousels and servo operated tool changers would take even longer than that.

[Loco112]

I hear and appreciate everything you say and I know the operation of modern CNC's machines is that complicated and intricate.

Maybe the only way is to change the servos and the controller and all the electronics together.

What about the guys on this forum that get a couple of old servos and a drill motor and build there own CNC machines and have them running using a Mach controller running on a PC? That seems pretty straight forward, certainly not the same thing as I want but, maybe its the same process of getting everything running and teaching the controller the limits of its movements.

What about Siemens and Fanuc that want and get that work every day, and I spoke to the Siemens retrofitter and Ius been a while, but I think they Quoted about $25,000 complete, Fagor was a lot lower I was told by the Siemens rep. Then there is Centroid and MachMotion that also do the more price conscious kits that you do some or all of the work yourself in some cases, and those machines work just fine so that might be the way to go.

There must be options for doing a controller change that do not include gigabits of human effort. Maybe the controller has to be built with retrofitting in mind like Fanus and Siemens both say they build some of their controllers for.

I'll talk to the companies and see what they say. I have a call back from Mazaks only high end rebuillder tomorrow I'll know soon what the costs are soon.

[RGeo]

You asked specifically about Mazak Nexus, which is mostly Mitsubishi hardware and heavily modified Mitsubishi software. Mazak has enough on their hands trying to keep things straight on their core business of selling new machines and servicing what they sold previously to concern themselves with retrofits. It’s simply not their business model to do retrofits.
Regarding other controllers, this is what I said previously:
“Mazak sells new machines, there are companies out there that do retrofits, but depending on the complexity of your machine it can take from 1 to 5 weeks just in labor”
So yes, there are companies out there who do retrofits with other controllers, but an actual Mazak controller retrofit is highly unlikely. Also, Mazak’s preferred rebuilders do mostly mechanical rebuilds, in the very rare case when a controller upgrade has been done, they have the machine shipped to Mazak and they replace everything, controller, motors amps, cables, limit switches, harnesses, everything. In the rare cases when this has been done, it was done because the machine itself was so special, that nothing like it was being produced at the time. The cost of this type of rebuild usually exceeds the cost of a new machine. In other words, if you want a new Mazak control, buy a new Mazak machine; if you want a new control for your old Mazak, I doubt you will end up using a Mazak control. Simply put, use another brand of controller.

[Al_The_Man]

Originally Posted by Loco112 Maybe the controller has to be built with retrofitting in mind like Fanus and Siemens both say they build some of their controllers for.

When I got into retrofitting in the early 90's I already had experience with Fanuc controls so I contacted them in order to use their controls, the response I got indicated to me that they preferred working with MTB's rather than the one-off retrofitter.
I ended up going with Mitsubishi, the co-operation and assistance was like night and day compared with Fanuc.
Al.

[RGeo]

Here is the story floating around Mazak: Mazak had their sights set on making a great conversational control, however, they didn’t want to reinvent the wheel as far as electrics were concerned. They began working with Fanuk, but every time Mazak would come up with new software that gave the Fanuc control new functionality, Fanuc would just take it and sell it to everyone else. Mazak finally worked out a deal with Mitsubishi and Mazak started to develop the Mazatrol conversational language. So far Mitsubishi has been an honorable partner and has kept their hands off of Mazak’s technology. This is why Mazak does not call their control Mitsubishi, because it’s, for the most part, Mitsubishi’s hardware, with mostly Mazak software. It’s unfortunate that Mazak does not put some effort toward retrofits, they have a good control, one which can program EIA, or Mazatrol and many people really like the Mazatrol programming. It’s funny; Mazak actually licenses some of their software technology back to Mitsubishi, for use in their controls.

[service_bb]

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[RGeo]

Oh yeh, even though I think Mazak would not retrofit your machine with one of their controllers, about 3 to 5 time a year they build a new custom machine using Fanuc controls. Some customers just prefer them, but they are likely the best control for 5 axes machining. Also Mazak has one machine, the Vortex that has a hybrid Funuc / Mazak controller on it. It's the only control they use on that machine. It's a high speed 5 axis, fully enclosed, dual column, gantry machine. I’m guessing they use the Funuc on this machine, because it is 5 axes, again, Funuc does well with full 5 axes machining. I would look in to the Funuc retrofit. Of course all of your motion control components will likely have to be replaced in the process.

[onthebumper]

Not true about the 5 axis thing. The Variaxis is a true 5 axis machine that has the Mitsubishi controller on it and Mazak does very well with this machine. All of the Integrex machines also are 5 axis capable as well as the Versa Tech and Angulax (a machine not sold in the USA).

[RGeo]

I didn't say that Mitsubishi / Mazak controller could not do 5 axes work. However, the Vortex uses only the hybrid Fanuc / Mazak controller for a reason, and I have it on good authority that it was due to the performance limitations of their Mitsubishi based control. It was bold to say that Fanuc is the best at simultaneous 5 axes work; there are other controllers to consider; Siemens, and Heidenhein, according to many. Certainly no one is rushing out to program an impeller that requires 5 simultaneous axes in Mazatrol, and Mitsubishi’s coordinated work is arguably less refined than Fanuc’s.

[Loco112]

Follow up; I had the phone call with Mazak (with a great guy their) the other day and they were not interested in doing any retrofits where the bill is less than huge(!), and they really want multiple machines of the same model to amortize their engineering costs for that model between multiple machines and invoices, so basically what "RGeo" told me was their story. They are not setup to retrofit anything for us little guys and their controllers are not engineered to be easily retrofitted in any way.

Mazak sent me to their only authorized retrofitter; Kentucky Rebuild Corp. I spoke to another great guy at KRC who was extremely helpful. He told me the same basic story and the same (big) numbers as Mazak, so (IMHO) its very clear (to me) that Mazak does not want to retrofit or update even their own old machines, and their controllers are not engineered to be retrofit friendly in any way.

Mazak, being one of the market leaders, gets enormous premiums on their prices for their new machines and making those sales is all they are interested in.

If you have an old Mazak, you are going to have to go to a different control manufacturers product to upgrade the controller on your machine..