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Thread: Meldas PSU fault 65

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    Meldas PSU fault 65

    Hi, I have a Kryle VMC with Mitsi M520 control. I'm getting a fault 65 which refers to the 'rush relay'. This shows up as soon as the control is turned on, the PSU and drives all power up, then within one second or so the contactor drops out. The motor drives are all powered up, and the capacitors in the PSU charge up in the initial second to 300V or so, then slowly discharge after the contactor has opened. There is 24V present from the estop circuit.

    I had a Kryle tech here to commission the machine (I bought it in an auction from an automotive factory clearance), and the machine was fine for a day, then when he returned the following day it exhibited this fault, so we opened up the PSU and cleaned the PCB etc (coolant had dripped in and gradually formed a crust.) This sorted it out and I left it switched on for a week with no problems. Then I turned it off and on again, and now this fault happens every time.

    I'm sure the Kryle tech is correct when he suspects the PSU, but they aren't half pricey (I've been quoted £2-3k!) I'm a one man band who was hoping to learn cnc milling on this machine, the cost of a new PSU pretty much makes it an uneconomical repair for me, so I'm hoping someone might know more about this. I'm good with electronics so I'd strip and rebuild the main PCB with all new components before spending that kind of money!

    Is the 'rush relay' one of the two on the PSU PCB, or is it referring to an external contactor?

    thanks for any tips.

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    no Meldas experts here...?

    I'm also wondering whether I can use a MDS-B-CVE-xxx to replace a MDS-B-CV-xxx

    any idea anyone?



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    I just rang Mitsubishi european HQ in Germany to ask about the backwards compatibility of their drives, he started off quite helpful but then when he realised I wasn't an authorised service agent he told me I could either do it through the proper channels and pay Mitsubishi GBP3000 for an exchange unit with a guarantee, or go on ebay to do it cheap and stop "boring Mitsubishi with this type of question". His tone reminded me of an irritated headmaster of a school, he gave me a real telling off!



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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    That is quite contrary to the service I get from Mitsubishi US & Canada.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design (Skype Avail).

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    Quote Originally Posted by Al_The_Man View Post
    That is quite contrary to the service I get from Mitsubishi US & Canada.
    Al.
    I'm sure I rang them a few months ago and they were quite helpful.. maybe he was just having an off day, but he did make it absolutely clear I wasn't following the correct procedure by attempting to bypass their service agents. He didn't even seem to want to get rid of me, he seemed to enjoy repeating several times that buying a drive from ebay meant I was going it alone and couldn't expect any help from them (I didn't even mention ebay, I just asked whether there was any compatibility issues between MDS-B and MDS-C1 units, which incidentally my authorised agent couldn't tell me when I recently paid for one of their engineers to come out for a couple of days. Not that I'm having a go at them at all, they work with complete packages of matched controls, drives and motors so they don't mix and match like us do-it-yourselfers.)

    Maybe I'll try the north American number next time!

    Anyway, do you have any experience of these drives Al?



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    Community Moderator Al_The_Man's Avatar
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    Yes I have used them with M50 controls, I have a surplus one right now MDS-B-CV37.
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design (Skype Avail).

    “Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.”
    Albert E.


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    With regards to CV units:

    B-CV can be replaced with a B-CVE, and both of those can be replaced with a C1-CV unit.

    The same applies to servo units, however there are some compatibility issues with encoders which must be looked at if replacing a B servo with a C1.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokkin View Post
    With regards to CV units:

    B-CV can be replaced with a B-CVE, and both of those can be replaced with a C1-CV unit.

    The same applies to servo units, however there are some compatibility issues with encoders which must be looked at if replacing a B servo with a C1.
    Oh great, that's the info I was after, thanks very much.

    I'm almost totally ignorant of these controls- I do know that all the drive parameters are sent from the control to the drives when powered up each time, but are there any comms between the control and the PSU that might be different from a B-CV to a C1-CV ? I guess what I'm asking is whether a C1-CV is just a drop-in hardware replacement for a B-CV without requiring any parameter changes in the control?

    One further question- I'm intending to add a 4th axis to the machine (once 3 axes are back in action!), would it be a good idea if I'm replacing a faulty PSU anyway to put in a larger unit, say a C1-CV-150. Would this be a straight swap as far as the control was concerned (obviously on the electrical side I'd check that the contactors and reactors upstream were man enough too..)

    thanks again for any info



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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_p View Post
    Oh great, that's the info I was after, thanks very much.

    I'm almost totally ignorant of these controls- I do know that all the drive parameters are sent from the control to the drives when powered up each time, but are there any comms between the control and the PSU that might be different from a B-CV to a C1-CV ? I guess what I'm asking is whether a C1-CV is just a drop-in hardware replacement for a B-CV without requiring any parameter changes in the control?

    One further question- I'm intending to add a 4th axis to the machine (once 3 axes are back in action!), would it be a good idea if I'm replacing a faulty PSU anyway to put in a larger unit, say a C1-CV-150. Would this be a straight swap as far as the control was concerned (obviously on the electrical side I'd check that the contactors and reactors upstream were man enough too..)

    thanks again for any info
    Yes, the C1 unit is a straight plug in. The only difference is that the ground lug is now moved to the chassis of the unit rather than on the front next to the incoming RST terminals. No biggie though. As far as increasing the CV size to accommodate a 4th axis, I can't comment on that since I have no clue what your current demands are. Your OEM can help with that or you can possibly use a MDS-B-SVJ2 drive which has it's own power supply.
    Typically though, I've never known anyone to upgrade their power supply when adding a 4th axis. If you think it's going to be an issue, then upgrade it now, but as you're already aware, make sure your existing wiring/contactors/reactor, etc will handle it. Also, make sure the CV unit fits in the cabinet. You may have to cut a slightly larger hole.



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    Quote Originally Posted by Rokkin View Post
    Yes, the C1 unit is a straight plug in. The only difference is that the ground lug is now moved to the chassis of the unit rather than on the front next to the incoming RST terminals. No biggie though. As far as increasing the CV size to accommodate a 4th axis, I can't comment on that since I have no clue what your current demands are. Your OEM can help with that or you can possibly use a MDS-B-SVJ2 drive which has it's own power supply.
    Typically though, I've never known anyone to upgrade their power supply when adding a 4th axis. If you think it's going to be an issue, then upgrade it now, but as you're already aware, make sure your existing wiring/contactors/reactor, etc will handle it. Also, make sure the CV unit fits in the cabinet. You may have to cut a slightly larger hole.

    Thanks again for the info, I've purchased a used C1-CV-110 which should arrive next week, so hopefully that will cure my problem.

    On the 4th axis front, your suggestion of using an SVJ2 drive seems a great idea, I've checked out the Mitsubishi manual and it has full wiring diagrams for this setup including connections to the existing MDS rack, machine contactors and estop circuits, so I think the hardware side of things should be straightforward so long as I make sure I get the correct motor to match the drive.

    My problem's going to be the PLC and control side of things. I spoke today to an authorised Mitsubishi control supplier in the UK, he confirmed Mitsubishi's policy (at least in Europe, I don't know about the US,) of supplying only the OEM. This guy deals with all the main players, Fanuc, Siemens, Heidenhain etc etc, and if a customer of his on a service contract needs, say, a motor, he can just go to Fanuc and buy the motor and fit it for the customer. But if the customer has, say, a Mazak with Mitsi control, he calls Mitsi and they look on their database to reference the motor's serial number to the OEM, and tell him to tell his customer to go via Mazak (who double or treble Mitsi's price, if that seems possible.) They won't supply him the motor, despite him being an authorised supplier of Mitsi controls! So they've got complete control of the spares market (sounds like restriction of trade to me...)

    This means guys like me on a low budget hoping to teach themselves a bit about CNC machining have a hard time with, to use my own example, adding a rotary axis, since the OEM, who I'm happy to pay to come and program the PLC and control, are kinda obliged by their deal with Mitsi to say they will do it, but only if they supply me a new drive and motor (at a cost far in excess of what I paid for the machine.)

    It's gonna be DIY for me then! How much work is there to do on the PLC logic in adding an axis? I guess it needs to know where the homing/indexing switch is, and have an output for the hydraulic brake (my machine has at least 2 M codes free for that already, since it had hydraulic fixture clamps in its previous life, all of which are still piped up to the table.)

    Then, the control will obviously need the new servo setup parameters, but what else needs doing to add an axis for full interpolation? Is it a huge job? I have a backup copy of the machine parameters, is it something I could pay someone could do remotely for me if I send them the files?



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    Quote Originally Posted by steve_p View Post
    Thanks again for the info, I've purchased a used C1-CV-110 which should arrive next week, so hopefully that will cure my problem.

    On the 4th axis front, your suggestion of using an SVJ2 drive seems a great idea, I've checked out the Mitsubishi manual and it has full wiring diagrams for this setup including connections to the existing MDS rack, machine contactors and estop circuits, so I think the hardware side of things should be straightforward so long as I make sure I get the correct motor to match the drive.

    My problem's going to be the PLC and control side of things. I spoke today to an authorised Mitsubishi control supplier in the UK, he confirmed Mitsubishi's policy (at least in Europe, I don't know about the US,) of supplying only the OEM. This guy deals with all the main players, Fanuc, Siemens, Heidenhain etc etc, and if a customer of his on a service contract needs, say, a motor, he can just go to Fanuc and buy the motor and fit it for the customer. But if the customer has, say, a Mazak with Mitsi control, he calls Mitsi and they look on their database to reference the motor's serial number to the OEM, and tell him to tell his customer to go via Mazak (who double or treble Mitsi's price, if that seems possible.) They won't supply him the motor, despite him being an authorised supplier of Mitsi controls! So they've got complete control of the spares market (sounds like restriction of trade to me...)

    This means guys like me on a low budget hoping to teach themselves a bit about CNC machining have a hard time with, to use my own example, adding a rotary axis, since the OEM, who I'm happy to pay to come and program the PLC and control, are kinda obliged by their deal with Mitsi to say they will do it, but only if they supply me a new drive and motor (at a cost far in excess of what I paid for the machine.)

    It's gonna be DIY for me then! How much work is there to do on the PLC logic in adding an axis? I guess it needs to know where the homing/indexing switch is, and have an output for the hydraulic brake (my machine has at least 2 M codes free for that already, since it had hydraulic fixture clamps in its previous life, all of which are still piped up to the table.)

    Then, the control will obviously need the new servo setup parameters, but what else needs doing to add an axis for full interpolation? Is it a huge job? I have a backup copy of the machine parameters, is it something I could pay someone could do remotely for me if I send them the files?
    I don't know about the policy in the UK, but in the US, Mitsubishi will sell you a drive and motor no problem. Perhaps order from Mits in the US. Maybe it will work out cheaper even with customs and shipping charges.

    With regards adding a 4th axis, the Mits control will support it providing all the parameters are set accordingly. However, the machine-side PLC must support it and you must have available I/O's for clamp, unclamp, zero-return switch, etc.

    Also, if the option is not on, you will need to purchase it from the OEM.



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    fault solved

    thanks again for your advice.

    I received my used MDS-C1-CV-110 from Korea today, it was immaculate- in fact I'd have thought it was new if not for the snipped off wires to the terminals. I fitted it and the machine seems to be fine now, so the Kryle tech guy diagnosed correctly, which is good news. I also heard from him today regarding the 4th axis, he is checking in their records whether my PLC is set up for an extra axis option, but he believes it is, so it should be relatively straightforward for them to sort the control parameters out.

    If anyone has an MDS-B-SVJ2-06 or higher with matching motor, let me know!

    thanks again



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