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  1. #21
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    Hey Jon,

    Figured I would jump in here.

    I was using Smart Cam Dos just before they came out with tthe windows version. I used it for approx. 2 more releases then changed jobs. At my new job I was charged with selecting a CAM system and although the temptation was to stick with smart CAM Point Contriol had just sold and I elected to go with masterCAM 5.5. for the reasons you cited. Although the dealer was trying to spin the sale as a positive thing, I didnt see it.

    I initially found the post rather overwhelming, but I had always been a bit of a hacker so I kept plugging away until I could make the post mods I needed.

    About 2 and a half years ago I changed jobs again and wound up back on SmartCam Version 11 which was at that time several years unsupported. I have to say that Smartcam had some neat features and the Code Generator concept was a good one (Although you could see the .tmp files becoming more complex as they tried to add flexibility). The lathe product was pretty straight forward and I found lathe programming to be a breeze with it.

    In FFM I always found that managing large process models became a daunting task however. One slip of the mouse on a complex model could screw up a single entity in a toolpath that might take hours to find and fix if not caught right away. SO I found myself spennding an inordinate amount of time managing entities.

    In another thread I heard a rumor that there may be a new SmartCam. I'll believe it when I see it.

    I found your coments about the Arizona situation interesting as we have a shop in the Phoenix Area that is all but closed up. No CNC mostly did prototypes and small quantity runs of complex components. Our PA shop has picked up this year, but Arizona is mostly doing support work for us at this time.


    CAM

    Wee aim to please ... You aim to ... PLEASE.


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    >Now THIS has piqued my curiosity. I'm pretty convinced of
    >dung's capabilities, and to hear him talk about OneCNC
    >makes me wonder.

    I always thought the person behind One CNC was pretty
    straight forward and easy to talk with. If you do a Google
    search of the newsgroup you best know a little about me
    from, using Bob+Francis, you should get a better idea of who
    is behind OnceCNC. Bob Francis and I had several productive
    conversations and I came away with a favorable impression.

    >I suppose I will be getting a demo of it just to see what
    >all the hype is about. Sounds like very competent/affordable
    >software.

    You can bet it's nowhere near fully developed and will have
    problems. Only by trying it out can you decide if *you* can
    live with those problems. In addition, you should get a
    better idea of what your really dealing with when you find
    problems and make suggestions on how to go about fixing them
    by the reaction and the results you get.

    >I program 3 and 4 axis stuff. Lots of microwave housings
    >and the likes.

    IOW lots of aluminum. Do any weldments ???

    >(Thank god we just hired an operator to help me and a
    >setup guy that comes in for a few hours at nite. (Well, he
    >starts tonite, so we'll see how he works out. )

    Can make all the difference in the world especially if you
    have someone who really wants to learn and is reliable.

    >I'm very excited about X. Especially since they've been
    >coming to emastercam asking what we'd like to see
    >different. I have high expectations.

    I think it's very hard to build a good Windows UI. I would say
    that SURFCAM has an exceptionally poor Windows UI. As far as
    a good Windows UI is concerned, I like what SolidWorks does
    by getting rid of as many dialog boxes as possible and
    entering information in the Feature Explorer. Since your a
    programmer you would relate to this as a tree view. I think
    it's even better when you do what think3 does with
    thinkdesign and take the tree view concept even further. See
    what you think of this UI. Here are two links.

    http://www.deskeng.com/articles/02/dec/web/web3.jpg

    http://www.deskeng.com/articles/02/dec/web/web2.jpg

    Notice the mini dialog boxes near the model. They
    dynamically show you what is happening in real time. You can
    also enter numerical data in them. I like this way of
    working. What do you think about it ???

    >I'm very excited about X. Especially since they've been
    >coming to emastercam asking what we'd like to see
    >different. I have high expectations.

    Again, I think it's very hard to really build a good UI that
    makes it a pleasure to work with (IOW... FUN !!! ;>)

    >As for the interface.. I will have to wait and see what
    >route they've taken.

    It's a big, big step. I think SURFWARE tried to mimic it's DOS
    UI in Windows and I think this is a big mistake. IMO you need
    to start with a clean sheet of paper. The problem is that
    companies are scared to death that they will alienate and
    lose their customer base.

    >I think the current menu/shortcut/toolbar system is quite
    >easy to move around in and get things done without 100%
    >mouse dependancy. But being someone who's developed
    >several GUI's, I know how hard it can be to get things
    >to work smoothly. Again,high hopes here as well.

    I do think it's very important to plan ahead of time how to
    make the UI as mouse independent as possible.

    >I think the biggest thing for me is the absense of
    >modality.

    Wow !!! I very strongly agree with this sentiment. I hope
    you have conveyed this to CNC Software. Nothing drives me
    more nuts than being forced to go from room to room to room
    to.... I would much prefer to take off the roof, peer in and
    choose what room I want to go to.

    >I'd also like to see an excel style operations manager, as
    >well as an excel style geometry editor, (like Virtual
    >Gibbs' Geometry Expert), where you can load a chain into
    >it, analyze and make >edits easily and quickly.

    Agreed, it's very helpful and it's an excellent feature.
    Besides this, I can't think of a thing positive to say about
    how Gibbs creates geometry. Seems to be an extremely low
    priority for them. Always has been.

    >The post GUI I could live without. I much prefer the
    >functionality and control of the text based posts.

    Why not have both ??? The GUI is much faster for simple
    stuff or for getting the framework done. Then you move to
    the text language for what the UI can't do. All the high end
    expensive stand along post constructors like InterCIM's G-
    Post and ICAM's CAM Post use this approach.

    Looking forward to reading your response.

    jon



  3. #23
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    Originally posted by jonbanquer

    IOW lots of aluminum. Do any weldments ???
    I haven't done weldments in a few years, thank god.

    I think it's very hard to build a good Windows UI. I would say
    that SURFCAM has an exceptionally poor Windows UI. As far as
    a good Windows UI is concerned, I like what SolidWorks does
    by getting rid of as many dialog boxes as possible and
    entering information in the Feature Explorer. Since your a
    programmer you would relate to this as a tree view. I think
    it's even better when you do what think3 does with
    thinkdesign and take the tree view concept even further. See
    what you think of this UI. Here are two links.

    http://www.deskeng.com/articles/02/dec/web/web3.jpg

    http://www.deskeng.com/articles/02/dec/web/web2.jpg

    Notice the mini dialog boxes near the model. They
    dynamically show you what is happening in real time. You can
    also enter numerical data in them. I like this way of
    working. What do you think about it ???
    That seems like a good UI. It reminds me of Solidworks, which as you mentioned, is a good UI and easy to manuever.

    It's a big, big step. I think SURFWARE tried to mimic it's DOS
    UI in Windows and I think this is a big mistake. IMO you need
    to start with a clean sheet of paper. The problem is that
    companies are scared to death that they will alienate and
    lose their customer base.
    Very true. It's amazine how much people stick to old ways of doing things. For example, I am right handed. I can use the mouse with either hand. I prefer left because it frees up my right hand for the 10-key. It's more effecient and more natural for programmers that use the 10-key, (which most cad/cam systems require). When I let someone use my computer, it's funny to see them squirm around trying every conceivable position that will allow them to use my mouse in their right hand without thinking to ask if they can move it.. Picture them with their hands crossed in front of them, mouse 90 degrees from normal, sitting sideways in their chair, tilting their head to the left trying to get that damn mouse pointer where they want it.

    They'll sit like that for hours. Funny as hell. The best part is that if they'd actually spend 2 hours using the mouse, they'd a) be more comfortable, and b) be done faster because they have to let go of the mouse only 15% of the times they used to let go of it to get to the 10-key. I will admit, I have tried using a track-ball for over 7 hours and could NOT convince myself it was worth while, while others that use them swear by them. Go figure.

    >I think the biggest thing for me is the absense of
    >modality.

    Wow !!! I very strongly agree with this sentiment. I hope
    you have conveyed this to CNC Software. Nothing drives me
    more nuts than being forced to go from room to room to room
    to.... I would much prefer to take off the roof, peer in and
    choose what room I want to go to.
    Yes. I have strongly suggested it. It (the ops dialog and the solids dialog) WILL be non modal. and a big ol wet sloppy kiss for everyone at CNC Software, (no, CNC, if you're reading this, you CANNOT put the kiss ANY WHERE YOU WANT IT!!).

    Agreed, it's very helpful and it's an excellent feature.
    Besides this, I can't think of a thing positive to say about
    how Gibbs creates geometry. Seems to be an extremely low
    priority for them. Always has been.
    Yes, the geometry expert almost makes up for the fact that you have to join entities via points. Literally. How f'n stupid is that!? The only other thing I like about creating geometry in Gibbs is the facing tool; creating lines and having the dia of the selected tool displayed is great for cleaning out irregular shapes.

    Why not have both ??? The GUI is much faster for simple
    stuff or for getting the framework done. Then you move to
    the text language for what the UI can't do. All the high end
    expensive stand along post constructors like InterCIM's G-
    Post and ICAM's CAM Post use this approach.
    Definately include a GUI for the post editing, but don't mess with my ascii version or I'll go balistic.

    'Rekd teh Ascii stupid question, get a stupid ansi

    Matt
    San Diego, Ca

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    "Hey Jon,

    Figured I would jump in here."

    Glad you did !!! Thanks.

    "At my new job I was charged with selecting a CAM system and
    although the temptation was to stick with smart CAM Point
    Contriol had just sold and I elected to go with masterCAM
    5.5. for the reasons you cited. Although the dealer was
    trying to spin the sale as a positive thing, I didn't see it."

    Well lets see if I can make yet another enemy fast. :>)

    How about:

    No one ever gets fired for buying IBM (MasterCAM).

    >I initially found the post rather overwhelming, but I had
    >always been a bit of a hacker so I kept plugging away until
    >I could make the post mods I needed.

    It did not seem that tough... I seem to remember that
    passing variables from misc. integers and creating logic so
    that you could do what you want seemed pretty straight
    forward. The problem was that there were no actual real
    world examples in the CNC Software MasterCAM 5.5 post book.
    This would have helped me a great deal. I think in that book
    all they did was break down an NCI file that was very basic.

    Anyone else still have that relic or remember it well enough
    to confirm what I'm saying... that it left a lot to be
    desired... and that's being polite.

    Perhaps if I had done a bunch of post stuff previously it
    would have been no big deal.... but I hadn't. The next
    system I worked with was DP Esprit X ... a port to Windows
    NT from Unix. DP had an excellent manual and great tech
    support and so I was able to do all sorts of neat stuff for
    the wire edm guys where I worked.

    "About 2 and a half years ago I changed jobs again and wound
    up back on SmartCam Version 11 which was at that time
    several years unsupported. I have to say that Smartcam had
    some neat features and the Code Generator concept was a good
    one (Although you could see the .tmp files becoming more
    complex as they tried to add flexibility). The lathe product
    was pretty straight forward and I found lathe programming to
    be a breeze with it."

    How did you like Version 11 ? This is the version we have at
    work and the one I purchased a book for... it's amazing how
    Scholars International Publishing recycles much of the same
    stuff no matter what CAD/CAM system they are writing a book
    for.... now you see how I manage to make so many enemies. :>)

    "In FFM I always found that managing large process models
    became a daunting task however. One slip of the mouse on a
    complex model could screw up a single entity in a toolpath
    that might take hours to find and fix if not caught right
    away. SO I found myself spennding an inordinate amount of
    time managing entities."

    I can't imagine anyone using FFM for even semi complex
    surfacing today. I don't believe FFM has rest machining, it
    certainly has nothing like trochordial milling. My guess is
    that it's got a few roughing routines a few finishing
    routines and you end up creating lots and
    lots of boundaries.... am I correct or just wrong. ;>)

    "In another thread I heard a rumor that there may be a new
    SmartCam. I'll believe it when I see it."

    I have heard that EDS PLM Solutions (or whatever UG is
    calling themselves this week) is planning a Parasolid
    version of SmartCAM and I heard this from someone who I have
    know a long time and who is a long time users of SmartCAM.
    Makes sense to me because EDS PLM Solutions has brought
    SolidEdge back from the dead by giving it some unique
    surfacing abilities. What better way to try and kick
    SolidWorks donkey than by providing what they have always
    believed in (first class CAM in UG) in SolidEdge ??? Does
    this make sense to you or anyone else ??? It sure does to me.

    "I found your coments about the Arizona situation interesting
    as we have a shop in the Phoenix Area that is all but closed
    up. No CNC mostly did prototypes and small quantity runs of
    complex components. Our PA shop has picked up this year, but
    Arizona is mostly doing support work for us at this time."

    You could always humor me and tell me the name of the shop.
    In this market you never know when you going to get laid
    off. I will certainly understand if you don't wish to tell me.

    On a serious note, thank you very much for taking the time to
    give me your take on MasterCAM posts and on SmartCAM. It's
    very much appreciated.

    So... how soon before we can get a thread started here on
    Mazatrol programming vs. offline MasterCAM programming.

    It's hard for me to be serious for too long. ;>)

    jon



  5. #25
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    Jon Wrote:
    So... how soon before we can get a thread started here on
    Mazatrol programming vs. offline MasterCAM programming.

    Jon sense you are a member on the Mastercam board you could of jumped in on that thread if you wanted.

    That has turned into a pissing match at this point over there.
    Were there are pro's and con's for both ways of programming.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)
    Cadcam
    Turning Product Specialist for a Software Company, contract Programming and Consultant , Cad-Cam Instructor of Mastercam .


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    Default Ohh Yeah

    +1 on that Jay.
    If you'll notice I've kept my nose outta that one

    PEACE



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    If you'll notice I've kept my nose outta that one
    You all know how I love a good 'contest', but since I don't know squat (pun intended), about mazatrol, I HAVE to keep my nose outta that one, so +1 hardmill.

    'Rekd teh missing out

    Matt
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    Originally posted by cadcam
    Jon Wrote:
    So... how soon before we can get a thread started here on
    Mazatrol programming vs. offline MasterCAM programming.

    Jon sense you are a member on the Mastercam board you could of jumped in on that thread if you wanted.

    That has turned into a pissing match at this point over there.
    Were there are pro's and con's for both ways of programming.
    I can view but I can't post to that board as I don't have a
    license for MasterCAM and we don't use it where I work. I
    also don't happen to agree that someone should have to have a
    license to post there or anywhere else. It does seem to be a
    pretty fairly moderated web board and the moderators seem to
    have gotten better over the years. I would have liked to
    have responded to some of the comments made about me by one
    particular poster though. :>)

    Programming at the machine vs. offline programming from
    threads that I have been involved with will always turn into
    a "pissing match" and if I say anymore it will. ;>)

    It also seems that PC based controls start major pissing
    matches and if I say more.... ;>)

    I will say this: I sure like much of what Kathy Richardson
    posts and I understand some of the issues that really
    frustrate her. I think she really has some very good ideas
    of how to improve the software. See: Wants for Version 10.

    jon



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    Kathy is one of my customers.
    I have been out to her company and she lets me know how she feels.

    Just talked to her about a week ago.

    She is one smart girl that is for sure.
    But I know she is a real big fan of UG.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)
    Cadcam
    Turning Product Specialist for a Software Company, contract Programming and Consultant , Cad-Cam Instructor of Mastercam .


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    >I haven't done weldments in a few years, thank god.

    I like them. Very challenging. Still have a lot to learn,
    though.

    >That seems like a good UI. It reminds me of Solidworks,
    >which as you mentioned, is a good UI and easy to manuever.


    If you like to design stuff for yourself or for others and
    cosmetic beauty is involved (surfaces) you would love
    thinkdesigns UI. It actually encourages experimentation
    rather than having to know exactly what you want to do(or
    close)ahead of time.

    >Very true. It's amazine how much people stick to old ways
    >of doing things.

    Hey, it's even worse when they are loyalists and refuse to
    acknowledge that something else besides what they know and
    use and have spent considerable time learning, makes a lot of
    sense and should be in the product they are so loyal to. IMO
    these people comprise 99 percent of the world. : (

    >Yes. I have strongly suggested it. It (the ops dialog and
    >the solids dialog) WILL be non modal. and a big ol
    >wet sloppy kiss for everyone at CNC Software, (no, CNC, if
    >you're reading this, you CANNOT put the kiss ANY WHERE YOU
    >WANT IT!!).

    How about getting rid of huge dialog boxes and findiing away
    to pass most of the information along as you are creating
    toolpath, geometry, etc.

    >How f'n stupid is that!?

    Please don't get me started... okay you did ;>) From what I
    can tell very little work has been done for geometry
    creation in the new version as this does not seem to be much
    of a priority for them.... after all these years "How f'n
    stupid is that!?" I need to stop now. Don't wish to get
    carried away. I'm still thrilled that they finally allow
    machinists to create and edit a post rather than having to
    pay at least $200 for one. How many times do you think they
    sold that FADAL post for at least $200 ??? How many times
    do you think they got the post right the first time, the second
    time....

    >Definately include a GUI for the post editing, but don't
    >mess with my ascii version or I'll go balistic. "


    A GUI for post creation just automates creation of much of
    the code (text). You don't have to use it or you can use
    just the portion you want and then add or edit text to your
    hearts content.

    jon



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    "Kathy is one of my customers. I have been out to her
    company and she lets me know how she feels."

    Cool !!! You know she is right. :>)

    "She is one smart girl that is for sure."

    No doubt about that. She's smart period.

    "But I know she is a real big fan of UG."

    Would it be fair to say that she wants many of the
    approaches and power that is in UG to be in
    MasterCAM X ???

    IMO, I wish CNC Software would pay closer attention to
    what she has to say.... perhaps this has changed recently
    because her frustration was very evident in some of her posts.

    jon



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    I'm still thrilled that they finally allow
    machinists to create and edit a post rather than having to
    pay at least $200 for one.
    If you're referring to PostHaste, I've used it and it is quite limited. At least as compared to some others.

    How many times
    do you think they got the post right the first time, the second
    time....
    The first time? Never.

    The second time? Once.

    The rest took 3, 4 times, or I just gave up. :/

    Keep in mind, I used Gibbs for 3-4 years, and had about 20 post mod requests over that time.. so we're looking at 60+ errors all told.

    'Rekd teh Wearing dark glasses like the cops in Texas

    Last edited by Rekd; 08-15-2003 at 11:04 AM.
    Matt
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    Reked , what problems are you finding with post hast?
    We can take care of the problem if we know the problem.

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)
    Cadcam
    Turning Product Specialist for a Software Company, contract Programming and Consultant , Cad-Cam Instructor of Mastercam .


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    cadcam, just the lack of control. (It's been a year or so since I've used it, so I forget some things). It doesn't give you enough options to really be effective, IMO. It's great for doing some simple mods, but lacks the power to eliminate the need for binary posts supplied by Gibbs. I would assume this is by design so they can keep the post guys employed, which is fine.

    I guess I'm a bit biased with MC, and should be thankful you can at least do the basic stuff to make your machine run the way you want.

    'Rekd teh retracting the unnecessary comment about posthaste.

    Matt
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    Originally posted by Rekd
    cadcam, just the lack of control. (It's been a year or so since I've used it, so I forget some things). It doesn't give you enough options to really be effective, IMO. It's great for doing some simple mods, but lacks the power to eliminate the need for binary posts supplied by Gibbs. I would assume this is by design so they can keep the post guys employed, which is fine.

    I guess I'm a bit biased with MC, and should be thankful you can at least do the basic stuff to make your machine run the way you want.

    'Rekd teh retracting the unnecessary comment about posthaste.
    They now offer an option where Gibbs will output an APT CL file.

    http://www.gibbsnc.com/gibbs/product/gc2002.asp

    "APT CL output is now available as an option, which allows users to interface GibbsCAM with their existing APT CL post processing installation or 3rd party posting capability. (APT CL post may require modification to be compatible with specific 3rd party products.)"

    I wonder how much they get for the above option which should be included at no charge ???

    On a brighter note they do seem to be giving more options with the free version of PostHaste :

    Full trigonometry and math equations
    Multiple output file capability
    General loop and exit constructs

    jon



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    Originally posted by cadcam
    Jon at this time we are looking at a beta around the 1st of the year.

    There is no screen shots for the puplic at this time.

    thanks Jay
    Will the UI be updated at all? I've been evaluating various CAM programs as I prepare the deep dive into CAM (already have CNC machines and 3dcad), and its very confusing how v9.x does not follow any normal windows conventions - I don't want to have to fully learn yet another interface if I don't have to.

    Thanks.



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    Originally posted by Spinnetti
    Will the UI be updated at all? I've been evaluating various CAM programs as I prepare the deep dive into CAM (already have CNC machines and 3dcad), and its very confusing how v9.x does not follow any normal windows conventions - I don't want to have to fully learn yet another interface if I don't have to.

    Thanks.
    Mastercam is currently still in DOS mode. With the release of X it will be a Winblows GUI. I, for one, believe the interface now is so fluid I hope they keep that functionality with it.

    'Rekd teh Old Skule

    Matt
    San Diego, Ca

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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


  18. #38
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    Default MasterCamX Tutorials

    Does anyone know any good sites that have good MasterCamX tutorials for a first time user?



  19. #39
    Power User Matt Berube's Avatar
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    Default

    Try this :
    http://www.tipsformanufacturing.com/...ercam_cds.html

    Click on the "free mastercam training videos"



  20. #40
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    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)
    Cadcam
    Turning Product Specialist for a Software Company, contract Programming and Consultant , Cad-Cam Instructor of Mastercam .


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