MadCAM features in 4-axis level - query

[Toolrunner]

madCAM is very competitively priced, especially now in v4.2 with the 4-axis level priced between the entry and expert levels. So I am considering buying the 4-axis level for a 4-axis CNC mill/rotary-table setup used for small prototype and pattern-making work.

I cannot understand all the terminology in the feature list, and this is where I need help. I can see that the limitations between the 4-axis level and the expert level, for a 4-axis setup, are:

Roughing:-
-Stock Model: No
-Roughing-remachining: No
-Simultaneous 4-axis Stock Model: No
-Simultaneous 4-axis Roughing-remachining: No
Remachining:-
-Z-level remachining: No
-Planar remachining: No
-Simultaneous 4-axis Radial-level remachining: No
-Simultaneous 4-axis Planar remachining: No
Regions and Boundaries:-
-User defined stock models: No

So in relation to these limitations, I have two questions:

1. The madCAM 4-axis version has no remachining functionality. How will that limit my work? The madCAM videos suggest to me that using the roughing and finishing functions that are provided in the 4-axis level might be enough. What then is the advantage of the remachining functions?

2. If you cannot define the stock model, then how do you machine from a cylindrical rod of material held in the rotary table chuck?

[turmite]

Toolrunner Joakim is headed to EuroMold so is going to be hard to contact until that show is over. However, I watched this video yesterday

YouTube- madCAM Simultaneous 4 axis and stock models

YouTube- madCAM Simultaneous 4 axis and stock models

And it clearly shows stock model for the 4th axis, but you are correct in the listed differences, it is not available. I will shoot Joakim and email asking him to come here and address this directly, hopefully before he gets back from the show.

Now for your first question. What type parts are you making, if you can share that? Depending on what you produce, you may not need remachining. I have it, and have never needed it for my production, but then again, I mostly cut wood.

I hope this helps a little.

Mike

[JOM]

Toolrunner,

1)
The 4-axis version includes the same functions as the Entry-level version, but each function can also be used for 4-axis. In the Expert version, the re-machining will automatically create toolpaths where it remains material on the model calculated from the previous cutter.
It is still possible to use region curves in the 4-axis version and that can also be used for some re-machining, but it is not automatic.

2)
In the Entry Level the default work piece is a rectangular block. It is possible to change the size of the work piece but it can only be a rectangular block. In the madCAM Four axis version when having madCAM set to 4-axis mode, the default work piece is a cylinder.
In the Expert version the stock material can be a Rhino model of any shape.

Joakim

[Toolrunner]

Ok, so in 3-axis mode, the only stock model is rectangular, and in 4-axis mode it is only cylindrical. I should be able to live with that.

As to remachining, I am still in the dark - I have no idea if it will be important to me or not. I don't know what region curves are. Can you define this term?

To assess if I need remachining at all, lets say I wanted to make these items:
i) the exterior shape of a domestic waterpipe T-junction
ii) a replica of the body of a cast-iron spokeshave
iii) a pattern for a lathe faceplate or drillpress table, complete with cast ribs and raised trademark lettering on the back side

Would any of these need remachining, and if so, why?

[svenakela]

This is how I think about it. If you run tough materials and want to cut down machine time or if time is an issue anyway, you should absolutely go for the remachining function. If money is an issue or if you can spend some extra time in the machine, you can skip it.
In a mould or tooling workshop where the machines are milling steel all day long with very precise requirements I think remachining is a very important feature. You can get the same result without the remachining, it will take a little bit longer though.

Remachining is a feature where the CAM program calculates the toolpath to only cut where there is stock material left (in corners, where there's a radius etc), it's all about having the tool do real work all the time instead of running in the air.

Region is a function to define an area of the model where the toolpath should be generated. It's very useful if you like to change a part of a model or need to go for a specific tool to mill a special shape but only for that specific part. For example if a sand mould is changed a little bit, like a radius is changed or a support is added, there's no reason to recut the entire mould.
It's like a fence to stop the cows running all over the farm. Put a fence where you want 'em and they stay inside.
Check my recent post about region curves here. Post 8 and 9.

There are tutorials coming for MadCam, more videos and PDF's as well.

[JOM]

Toolrunner,

Yes you will be able to create toolpaths for any 3D-model with the madCAM Entry Level or the madCAM Four-axis version. The re-machining is for saving time and it also reduces wear of cutters especially when cutting steel.

Joakim

[Toolrunner]

Thank you for your responses. Svenakela, that was a helpful way of answering my questions and helped with your original posts on region curves which I had read, but still didn't understand at the time.

It seems that I can be confident that the 4-axis version (no remachining), will be sufficient for prototyping and initial product development. When it is time for production runs, where I need more speed and lower cutter stress and wear I can upgrade to 'expert' level, which allows remachining.

A last question for this thread: Would region-curves be a useful work-around for the stock model limitation, at least in 2D applications; for example if you wanted to mill into circular plate stock rather than a rectangular plate? I would be happy for a response to this question.

A general feedback comment here too: More information is needed on the madCAM website, explaining and defining the features more fully. The videos are good but I noticed early on that the product level is not declared and most are apparently made for expert level. MadCAM offers the entry level product but the marketing is not entry level - insufficient explanation to base a purchasing decision when you are a first-time CAM buyer - so I for one have been holding back (but special pricing until 01 February is a new incentive). The demo version is there but I never seem to have enough time to explore it sufficiently before it would reach its 30-day expiry. Anyway demo versions mean little to a first-time buyer because you never know what to look for in the product; you only find out the limitations once you buy and get fully involved in a real project. So plenty of explanation and explicit and honest examples of the work that can be produced with each product level (not just expert level) is more important.

[svenakela]

Originally Posted by Toolrunner Thank you for your responses. Svenakela, that was a helpful way of answering my questions and helped with your original posts on region curves which I had read, but still didn't understand at the time.

You're welcome.

It seems that I can be confident that the 4-axis version (no remachining), will be sufficient for prototyping and initial product development. When it is time for production runs, where I need more speed and lower cutter stress and wear I can upgrade to 'expert' level, which allows remachining.

Sounds good. If you ever need it.

A last question for this thread: Would region-curves be a useful work-around for the stock model limitation, at least in 2D applications; for example if you wanted to mill into circular plate stock rather than a rectangular plate? I would be happy for a response to this question.

You never use regions when 2D-machining. You define the 2D machining with profiles and then if you want to cut outside or inside the profile. Regions only have effect when you go for 3D (as far as I know). You still model in 3D though. There are tutorials coming on 2D as well. I happen to know that.

A general feedback comment here too: More information is needed on the madCAM website, explaining and defining the features more fully. The videos are good but I noticed early on that the product level is not declared and most are apparently made for expert level. MadCAM offers the entry level product but the marketing is not entry level - insufficient explanation to base a purchasing decision when you are a first-time CAM buyer - so I for one have been holding back (but special pricing until 01 February is a new incentive). The demo version is there but I never seem to have enough time to explore it sufficiently before it would reach its 30-day expiry. Anyway demo versions mean little to a first-time buyer because you never know what to look for in the product; you only find out the limitations once you buy and get fully involved in a real project. So plenty of explanation and explicit and honest examples of the work that can be produced with each product level (not just expert level) is more important.

My personal experience is that MadCAM is an extremely powerful underdog. But as you say you need to know how to use it and there's a barrier for most users, but that's not only specific to this tool. I think on the other hand that MadCAM has been for the advanced users and the effort as been to add advanced features instead of marketing. And now more and more "standard" users have realised the capabilities and therefore the entry level pricing has been changed upon request. MadCAM is a competitor to the big dragons out there. It just happen to be sold for a very nice price. When it comes to trials and first time users, unfortunately that's a problem where ever you go.

As I stated in earlier posts and in this one as well, there are more tutorials coming. If you know Rhino (which is a requirement to model) this is a fantastic tool.

[Toolrunner]

Good, thanks for that final response, I am pretty convinced now, those were my final concerns with the product. I suppose it is the advantage of investing in Rhino that there is a rich aftermarket with options like madCAM available.

Well it should be that my next post will be as a madCAM user asking for advice.