Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

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    Red face Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Hello again,
    How many 'Standard' parallel port pins are actually documented? None? All? Maybe just some. After an hour and a half phone session with the designer of 'Masso' – The 'all-in-one' CNC controller I have finally got my Masso functional. What a wonderful piece of practical design work it is too. The pinouts of a parallel port were a nightmare. In the end abandoned for the most part because only a few of the examples I saved from obscure locations could actually be relied on. All I know for sure is that pins 1 thru 13 are 'from' the Chinese black box controller. That corresponds to the top row of them.

    Pretty soon (maybe late next week or the week after) I'll post a video of the adventures of buying a Chinese CNC router off Ebay. It'll be particular to Chinese gear because of the language issues when they (the Chinese) try to provide instruction in English. Better I think to leave that to someone using English as their native language. Anyway... What (for me) started out a plan to dump the junk electronics and replace them with stuff that had specifications was an interesting adventure in its own right.

    The Masso controller I bought - for no other reason that it was made in Australia turned out to be the smartest (and close to most expensive) decision I made since ordering a Chinese router. First thing is ignore the 2 year warranty. Its all lies. Next thing is ignore the '100% satisfaction guarantee' that's lies too. In Australia its illegal to open the power supply of a 240 volt product unless you posses a 'Limited Electricians License' or higher. I actually have one for what its worth The card that controls the stepper motors is widely claimed by Planet CNC to be a 'Counterfeit' of their invention... Its not! Sure its has an almost identical circuit and uses identical chips but all the Chinese maker did was what millions of people all over the world do, take someone else's idea and run with it. I just wish they did a better job of labeling everything.

    So anyway... This is not my first adventure into Chinese manufacturing machines. I decided to buy a 'Masso' CNC controller as a lead up to buying several more of them for other manufacturing machines I have. I'm glad I did. Just the concept of needing a stand alone computer, software and all the programs you'll put on it in the middle of a machine shop just to control a router is ridiculous. Multiply that by 5 and it becomes a nightmare. The Masso – Made by Hind Technology In Sydney Australia is the first item I've ever seen for CNC that doesn't need an additional computer... It is its own computer.

    Most likely uses embedded Linux as the OS or some other embedded OS. The fact it can fit inside the black box controller of the pictured router really goes to show what can be achieved when you sit down and define a criteria for a project. The hardest part of setting up a Masso is gaining control of the spindle. That's what the hour and a half phone call was about. Documenting how to do it. At $800+ AUD the Masso doesn't look cheap but considering all you need is a $10 keyboard and a basic monitor, not needing to buy a computer and software to drive your CNC machine starts to put the cost into perspective. For me, faced with buying four more PCs at $750 each, Using 5 Massos is a cheap alternative.



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Ryadia,

    Yup you are correct while the standard parallel port on a PC is very well defined, and there are certain pins that are dedicated inputs and others that are dedicated outputs, the way they get assigned by various CNC products is all over the place. Each of these new Chinese versions decided to do their own assignments which is not an issue if you actually are provided the assignments but like you said the documentation on most of their products is lacking. Several people have taken notice of the Masso product, but it is not the only standalone controller that does not require a PC. See the link below for a Chinese version that does not need a monitor or keyboard, just a USB stick with your gcode program.

    Free Shipping CNC 3 Axis offline stand alone controller engraving CNC router | eBay

    The nice think about the Masso was it supported a nice color monitor and on the surface their videos suggest a really nice product. Several other users have reported several issues on these machines, but over time they should get all the bugs ironed out and it will be nice to be free of a PC like you said.

    Several other users have reported good luck with the Chinese 3/4 axis standalone controllers and said they actually work.

    Russ



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Hi, I am of the opinion that from the latest version any PC has a life span of not more than 4 years before it becomes a dynosaur and is not worth giving away........a built in PC would be the same problem.

    It doesn't take much dosh to buy an XP computer and run Mach 3 on it with a Gecko G540 etc.......that is a lot less than the $800 ......and the Gecko dosn't have bugs in it to iron out.......just my opinion.

    BTW......the axiom of putting your eggs in one basket has apparently not raised the awareness that if the system fails the whole infrastructure it controls comes to a grinding halt.......in this case scenario the idea is to run 5 machines from the one source.........and who in his right mind puts a computer in the middle of a workshop????

    My computer.....next to the mill cabinet.... running Windows 7 32 bit with Mach3 and USB..... is an ASUS Veriton the size of an A4 copy paper and 50mm thick......how much more compact can you get/.......and it cost me $50 with another $40 to have the Win 7 32 bit reinstalled installed on it.

    I expect the fact that you would need to run a thick long cable to each machine from a central source has also escaped the notice.

    Perhaps I'm missing something in an industrial type environment.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Good day Ian...
    A lot of people (me too sometimes) think like you just described. I certainly won't argue with what you said. The thing that made up my mind to use Masso controllers was that it is made in Australia. After experiencing Masso support I know now I made the right choice. I've got some clear ideas about my factory. Its divided into 3 sections. Office, Factory and Dispatch/store. It wasn't always like this. When I started out I had no clear ideas about this. Everything was lumped in together. Eggs in one basket is a good idea if, in an emergency you need to cannibalize one machine to keep another going.

    Only time will tell if a solid state controller is going to go the distance. I can tell you the monitor I'm using on this first Masso is the absolute first LCD monitor I ever bought. It is over 13 years old, been used in the factory and outlasted 3 PCs. It sat unused in the store room for 3 years! I seriously didn't expect it to work when I dragged it out but it does!. Today was the first day of production using the Masso to control this router. It cut and engraved 6mm Plexiglass that I'd previously bought cut to size by a laser. The suggestion that a laser makes a better edge (which I use a LED strip to light up) doesn't hold up if you run a 'polish' cut around the edge after engraving. I did 'flame' the edge of a few pieces and measured the brightness. Not worth the effort. Time to cut the edge was actually faster with a router than the $100 an hour laser service.

    I've also gone a long way towards machining the base out of Australian Beech hardwood. I'm in the process of fitting a second controller to a 3020 router specifically for wood. The oldest solid state electronic item I have is a CB radio. Its been around Australian in a LandRover, fishing in a boat and thrown in a box of junk when I had no use for it. It certainly looks like its seen better days. After reading your message I decided to dig it out and see if it still works. Amazing. It does. I bought it in 1978. I won't bore you with its history of flood and fire but the fact it still works makes me feel the Masso concept of solid state technology has every chance of lasting as long as the machines they will control. Like I said earlier... Only time will tell. Take a look at some of the videos about Masso, everything is replaceable. On that basis I would tend to disagree with you about its potential life. Tax laws in AU allow me to depreciate equipment for quite some time. Buying a spare controller may be a cautious move I'll think about.

    No thick cords in my factory except 3 phase power. The Masso doesn't seem to suffer from heat or need anything more than a small fan in case it does. The 'software' just reads Gcodes. There is some rudimentary facility for creating shapes but this is (in my opinion) far better done on a workstation in the office, put on a stick and plugged into the Masso. When it boots it can read the stick and be ready to cut or engrave. 10 second boot time too!

    Enjoy your weekend Ian,
    Ryadia



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Hi, as you say, time will tell as it always does........I doubt that in 4 years time the technology you mention will be valid, that is how fast the pace is today.........hard drives are now SSD types....no moving parts etc.

    BTW.....what do you need a big hard drive for anyway......the op system only needs a small amount of memory space and you NEVER store programs on a hard drive attached to a PC, inbuilt or standalone anyway......a decent size USB flash drive can hold any program you need to have.

    I'm still very new to the CNC game per se, but learning fast, but the aspect of a built in computer is not one I'd be bending over backwards for.

    It's a fact that many people are automatically from day one replacing the blue box type controllers that come with the gantry routers on EBAY for the Gecko G540, which by all accounts is a very hard act to follow.......I doubt that any of those gantry routers are running servo motors.

    If the Masso is totally home grown and for that price, state of the art, it would have to have been assembled with automation and surface mount components.....that means if the board gives trouble it's a throw away item as repairing a board like this is not cost effective.......a regular PC does not get repaired when the board is wonky....ask me how I know......usually with an extended warranty it's a total replace item and after 3 years when the warranty runs out you're upgrading anyway.....most of the time just an oldish XP computer will be more than sufficient.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    ...most of the time just an oldish XP computer will be more than sufficient.

    Ian.
    Up until quite recently I was running two mills each on a DOS based (8 colour TFT touch screen) system using a Acroloop motion card that sat in a ISA slot, the PC program was the HMI, Trajectory planner and PLC, the card took care of interpolated motion separate to the PC.
    Suprising what you can get away with!!. ..
    Al.

    CNC, Mechatronics Integration and Custom Machine Design

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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    the op system only needs a small amount of memory space and you NEVER store programs on a hard drive attached to a PC
    Thanks, I guess I've been doing it wrong the last 20 years. All of my programs are on the machine controls hard drive.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    The only 'drives' in a Masso are the USB port. Everything else is built in. My company was once in the security industry. We still get calls from people asking us to service 10 year old surveillance equipment that is 100% solid state (except for the cameras). They run an obscure OS that has long ago dropped off the map... But they still run!

    No Ebay sourced routers use servos. Simply cost too much. I've got a G540 controller in my 3020 router. To be frank, there is not a lot of difference in performance between that machine running an old Dell PC with Vista and the Masso. Where the difference is can be summed up in a word. SIZE. The dell is about 450mm square. The Masso? Maybe 200mm long. About the size of a small book.

    Ryadia



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    CNCMAN ,I like the thought of a stand alone controller used many on machines in the past sure they are heaps better now and multiple screens menu was good, then a matter of plugging in the G code from the USB and off you go .I would like a G540 at the back end could be a good future build .



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Well, as the saying goes, when all things are equal, the simplest is always the best solution.

    We tend to complicate things for no good reason......but if it pleases you to do that, the end justifies the means.

    In some designs I dream up I'm guilty of that problem and have to go back to basics and re-evaluate where I'm trying to go.

    When you look at a laptop PC motherboard I have to wonder just how much you could cut off of it and still have a working computer for CNC use........some parts like the CD rom drive, floppy disc drive and the hard drive and it's peripheral circuitry etc etc.......stripped down it would probably fit in a match box.

    I'm not at all sure how it works but I think the Rasberry Pi can drive a CNC device, and that's as small as you can get......if small is the criteria that turns you on etc.

    Of course, the power supply is the big problem due to heat generation etc, but the switch mode types are now almost universal and they are really compact compared to the older trannie types.

    Taken away from the computer itself, the power supply could be a stand alone device that powers everything instead of just the computer with another one to power the controller, steppers, coolant pump, lights etc etc.

    Then the computer would be something like a small device that plugged into the controller with a USB connection, whatever......updating the computer would be so simple.

    I heard once that someone asked the Chinese supplier how much it would save if the CNC router was sold without the control box and it was said about A$50.....someone else said he wanted one for A$50 but the vender said no go......LOL.......bullsh!t finds it's own level.

    At that rate the 3040 CNC router with ball screws would sell for A$200.....I want one.......a couple even.....LOL.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Thanks, I guess I've been doing it wrong the last 20 years. All of my programs are on the machine controls hard drive.

    ger21,
    I guess I have been doing it wrong for 20 years as well. The hard drive access is always much faster than USB. Some of my 3D machining programs are huge and take 15 hours to cut.
    Russ



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    LOL.......and if/when the hard drive crashes....... with all your eggs in one basket...... you not only lose all the programs but the opn system as well..........the opn system can be reloaded but it takes a lot of work to rekindle the actual programs you use to cut etc.....just my opinion that I read about what is not advisable to do.

    I do bow to other people's knowledge and experience as it's the proverbial proof of the pudding.........I expect it is also very true that USB flash drives can go walk about just when you need one.

    I have to stick a label on mine and also make a written note to know what they hold......too much fuss booting one up and reading the file titles.

    I don't think a hard drive speed is of any importance in program access by Mach 3....whatever..... as it reads ahead and the mill or router steppers don't run that fast that they have to wait for a USB drive etc.

    It's been noted that all you need on the hard drive is the opn system and the control software......programs are stored on off computer drives etc, so that means the hard drive is pretty small for what it's required to do, and a small SSD hard drive is cheap.

    The other side of the coin is....why not store the programs on micro memory cards in a single access drive............I've seen one on Pintrest that had twenty 32 gig memory cards stored in it with random access..........gonna check EBAY to see if they're available and how much.

    My one card reader is USB so that means I can almost do the same with partial results......cards are cheaper than a full USB drive and can be stored in a card wallet by the dozen......that's potentially still all your eggs in one basket I think if you mislay the wallet.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    just my opinion that I read about what is not advisable to do.
    What is not advisable is running programs from a USB stick. That's been known to cause problems.

    And the programs on my machines hdd are not the only copy I have of them. I program on my main PC in the house, and copy them over the network to the machine. But it doesn't really matter much to me, as I almost never re-run older programs. I program parts when I need them, and most of what I do are one-offs.


    It's been noted that all you need on the hard drive is the opn system and the control software......programs are stored on off computer drives etc, so that means the hard drive is pretty small for what it's required to do, and a small SSD hard drive is cheap.
    On our big router at work, I just upgraded the hdd to an SSD. After 10 years of use, and probably hundreds of thousands of programs, there were about 30gb of data on the drive. I paid about $50 for the 120Gb SSD.
    If you're worried, just buy a second SSD and backup to that.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    handlewanker,

    All of my cnc programs are developed on a separate computer with a backup system. I just copy the Gcode files to flash drive and then pop the flash drive into the cnc computer and copy from the flash drive to the cnc computer hard drive. I have seen Mach3 hang sudden when reading one of my gcodes directly from the flash drive, I am sure this was really a windows issue probably not a Mach3 issue but I have never seen it do that from the hard disk. I have seen many other quirks when using Mach3 that do not happen when I run the same exact gcode on my KmotionCNC machine. Anyway no matter where you store your programs they are always subject to loss if the drive dies, flash stick dies, or even gets corrupted. We all take than chance. Many people use SSDs on their CNC computers because they boot windows so much faster, I have even lost one of those on one of my home computers and it was only three months old.

    Russ



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Gulp!!!......point taken, you can't win with electronics, so my fingers will be crossed in future.......for the small amount I'll be using them.....I guess industry standards are a different ball game when you're relying on your crust of bread earner.

    So, reading into the forgoing expo.......if you have a small SSD on your machine computer for a HDD and copy the program from the USB stick to it you "should' be OK,

    The Asus Veriton computer I use for my mill has a regular laptop HDD in it....practically bigger than the motherboard it's attached to, as the whole computer is as big as a sheet of A4 copy paper, and it probably consumes more power than the computer itself when it's running.

    If I was more "geekified" computer wise, I'd strip one down to the bare motherboard and see just how compact it can get, but that's deep water and tantamount to brain surgery, and I just don't need another project. but it would be interesting to go down that path.....maybe the UTUBERS have done it.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    What is not advisable is running programs from a USB stick. That's been known to cause problems.

    On our big router at work, I just upgraded the hdd to an SSD. After 10 years of use, and probably hundreds of thousands of programs, there were about 30gb of data on the drive. I paid about $50 for the 120Gb SSD.
    If you're worried, just buy a second SSD and backup to that.
    Herein lies the deceptively simple fact that any optical r magnetic storage devise is quite capable of expiring without prior warning. I suppose when you bought the SSD you missed the part where they have a predetermined lifespan? Yes sir... Put your swap file (virtual memory) on the main drive -as Microsoft does by default and if you happen to be a trifle shy on RAM, the drive will kill itself just writing to and reading from the outdated, ridiculously over used swap file.

    What's wrong with more RAM? Linux have been avoiding swap files buy using more RAM for decades. Microsoft? Oh no, we'll help all our PC manufacturers save a few cents on memory and start swapping out RAM at about 30% usage. Almost as bad as the rubbish I'm confronted with now. What does an X mean?

    If anyone can tell me how to wire the emergency stop into "Estop1 and Estop2" without risking melting my $800 Masso, we'll be friends for life!

    Ryadia



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    I wouldn't bother stripping down a perfectly good notebook or laptop when for less than $300 you can buy a 140mm square 25mm deep (approximately) computer with Windows 10 already installed on it. Try Banggood if you are game to buy from them. My mobile phone arrived sans functionality for AU. They sent me a different model! It took 6 weeks to get a refund. Good thing I got one because the Brand new LG I bought at office works was cheaper than the no-name thing I bought from Banggood. I'm pretty sure the mini PC is what its supposed to be. You just never know when transacting business with a foreign national who doesn't speak your language.

    Ryadia



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Hi.....140mm square....that is compact.....but it also has a small screen and that is a problem when a 19" wide screen monitor is about as small as you'd want to go.

    I mounted my 19" wide screen monitor ($30 on EBAY) on a jointed arm that I'm also going to add a bracket to hold the keyboard too, to get it off the table top......I couldn't imagine how big a screen a 140mm square laptop computer would have.

    The real problem with separate computer and monitor is the thick cable connecting them, and a separate power supply just for the monitor.

    I have to agree, a 19" laptop is compact and in one package if you can find one for $100......and they come with USB input.,,,,but the power down battery saving mode may be a problem......would running it with a power supply connected keep it powered up all the time?

    Maybe I've been looking in the wrong corner for the ideal solution......back to EBAY......wanted, 19" wide screen laptop with XP.....$100.
    Ian.



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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryadia View Post
    Most likely uses embedded Linux as the OS or some other embedded OS.
    You don't know that unless you carefully examine it. Pirated embedded Windows is widely used in China.

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    Default Re: Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    ... and you NEVER store programs on a hard drive attached to a PC, inbuilt or standalone anyway......
    Why not? Why USB flash drive can hold many software, they are really painfully slow compared to any HD. USB3 is fast, but still in reality much slower than SATA or eSATA.

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Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information

Beware of the Interent. Particularly pinout information