Which Rapid/3D Prototyping Machine To Buy?

[iaknown]

So I'm throwing around the idea of purchasing a rapid prototyping, stereolithography-type machine for doing prototypes for one of our reliable pharmaceutical customers. Cost is definitely a factor since we are a small shop. Material capabilities is also a big factor, I see some make ABS parts which would be pretty good for many applications we work with, the more chemical resistant the better. Also I have heard of sintered-metal which may be good too but I would imagine that gets pricey. Does anybody have any experience and recommendations with these machines? What is the best setup for the money? I am not ruling out used machines either, don't need the latest performance just a reliable and cost-effective machine. Any help is much appreciated! And if I'm in the wrong forums, mods please move me....

[mcsker]

I'm a high school teacher that was fortunate enough to pick up a 3d prototype printer this last year. We got the Desktop printer (capacity approx 8 x 8 x8 ) for around 16k. We are using the soluble support material, so students can draw complete assemblies, print, and dissolve out the middles. We looked at the Z-corp powder printer (corn starch type material) and when the salesman accidently dropped a part on the floor and it went into a million pieces, we knew that one wasn't the one for us. Just my two cents.

[iaknown]

Interesting.....how does the material you use hold up to elements and chemicals? Can you use other materials in your machine?

Anybody work with any other materials like the ABS or sintered metal?

[mcsker]

The only material that I know this machine to use is an ABS plastic. It comes on spools, that to the students looks like weedeater replacement line. Can't tell you about holding up to a lot of chemicals or the elements, I do know it will slightly soften to laquer thinner. Check out this site, this is the Dimension u-print we just got.

[mcsker]

Whoops , how about adding the website.....
http://uprint.dimensionprinting.com/

[mcphill]

You have some very basic points to research or state here first. Please forgive the following rambling, but the questions you are asking are quite open...

What is your budget?

What type of resolution do you need for the finished parts?

If you have under $100k, just about your only option will be FDM machines like the uPrint posted, or the Z-Corp printer. Dimension has larger machines that do FDM as well, and resolution can be down to 0.007". I personally have a Dimension ES1200 machine, not an "elite" model, with a minimum resolution of 0.010". These machines DO leave visible "layers" in the models. Depending on the medical devices you are modelling, this may or may not be OK. If parts you are trying to make have a lot of small features, and part sizes are under 1" per axis, this likely will NOT be a very good option.

The problem is that the higher resolution machines are MUCH more expensive.

Personally, I would avoid the Z-Corp machine stated by the other poster as well. The models might look a little nicer than FDM parts, but they are very fragile. Don't be sucked in by the "pretty colors" you can do with the Z-Corp printer. My guess if funtionality is WAY important that pretty colors.

Sintered plastic and sintered metal machines are VERY nice, and I think they are well over $150k - in your budget?

SLA machines have VERY nice resolution, but again are very pricey, have pricey maintenance, and the media is crazy expensive as well. Again over $100k for a machine.

I suggest you take a LONG time to consider your options. You can likely get parts made by outside companies, and "up-charge" them to your Pharma customer. Not until you have parts to print on a daily basis will it be cost effective to make parts yourself.

For other third party options, check out RedEye RPM (http://www.redeyeondemand.com/Default.aspx). This is Dimension/Stratasys' in-house "third party operation". They have tons of material options, and give quotes online. If nothing else, you can get a feel for the options available to you there.

If you are interested in FDM parts, let me know, and I would be happy to be a supplier to you. My rates for FDM parts is well under Red-Eye's price, and I can usually get a 2-3 day turnaround (www.mcpii.com).

Good luck in your research!

[iaknown]

Originally Posted by mcphill You have some very basic points to research or state here first. Please forgive the following rambling, but the questions you are asking are quite open... What is your budget? What type of resolution do you need for the finished parts? If you have under $100k, just about your only option will be FDM machines like the uPrint posted, or the Z-Corp printer. Dimension has larger machines that do FDM as well, and resolution can be down to 0.007". I personally have a Dimension ES1200 machine, not an "elite" model, with a minimum resolution of 0.010". These machines DO leave visible "layers" in the models. Depending on the medical devices you are modelling, this may or may not be OK. If parts you are trying to make have a lot of small features, and part sizes are under 1" per axis, this likely will NOT be a very good option. The problem is that the higher resolution machines are MUCH more expensive. Personally, I would avoid the Z-Corp machine stated by the other poster as well. The models might look a little nicer than FDM parts, but they are very fragile. Don't be sucked in by the "pretty colors" you can do with the Z-Corp printer. My guess if funtionality is WAY important that pretty colors. Sintered plastic and sintered metal machines are VERY nice, and I think they are well over $150k - in your budget? SLA machines have VERY nice resolution, but again are very pricey, have pricey maintenance, and the media is crazy expensive as well. Again over $100k for a machine. I suggest you take a LONG time to consider your options. You can likely get parts made by outside companies, and "up-charge" them to your Pharma customer. Not until you have parts to print on a daily basis will it be cost effective to make parts yourself. For other third party options, check out RedEye RPM (http://www.redeyeondemand.com/Default.aspx). This is Dimension/Stratasys' in-house "third party operation". They have tons of material options, and give quotes online. If nothing else, you can get a feel for the options available to you there. If you are interested in FDM parts, let me know, and I would be happy to be a supplier to you. My rates for FDM parts is well under Red-Eye's price, and I can usually get a 2-3 day turnaround (www.mcpii.com). Good luck in your research!

Thanks for the replies....first off, my budget isn't much. Well UNDER $100k. Mcsker mentioned a budget that is probably around mine, and like I said before I would even consider a used machine but I don't really know what I'm looking for. High resolution isn't really a priority. The parts usually aren't very detailed, just have to be functional and accurate, usually fixtures and holders, etc. The budget of the sintered metal machines answers shoots down that possibility! And using a third party may be an option, I may have to look into that in the future...

[iaknown]

What's your opinion on this unit?

http://cgi.ebay.com/3D-Systems-Actua...item518ff121bb

I'm trying to find out some info on the material but I'm not coming up with too much...

[iaknown]

And this one?

http://cgi.ebay.com/Rapid-Prototypin...item4a9e1105f8

Thanks guys....

[WGoyer]

It is true that the untreated Z-Corp product is fragile. However, there are lots of post processing options that make this machine's product very durable. For starters, you can drip or dip it in CA (super glue). They have other very durable dips and treatments. The strongest one allows you to make an epoxy like coating that is sucked into the pores with a simple vacuum process. I've seen nice hammers made out of this inexpensive process.

There are links to samples all over their website:
www.zcorp.com

Warren
www.upitmecorp.com

[mcphill]

Originally Posted by iaknown And this one? http://cgi.ebay.com/Rapid-Prototypin...item4a9e1105f8 Thanks guys....

"If it looks too good to be true"...

I was under the impression from your original post that you wanted to build actual medical device prototype parts. Those would be small and need great detail ( I would think). If you actually are looking to make fixtures and holders, I think FDM is a good way for you to go. Again, farming out at first would also give you the opportunity to see different materials, and learn more about the different technologies before committing to one.

The prices on the ones you posted look fantastic - but I have to say, that will only be the start of the costs. Maintenance is high, maintenance agreements will be 5-figures (ore more!) to get started with a machine off support (call the companies and ask them, you should be able to get serial numbers from the sellers), and I have to guess these are for sale because they were not the "best performers" the previous owners had in their shops.

[iaknown]

....very interesting. What kind of maintenance do these machines require? And how about other costs like resin/material?