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    Default Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    I'm in the process of building my first machine with Mach and a Parallel port. I built one other machine running grbl. I have a issue with loosing steps on one of my dual x axis motors, so i wanted to take a look at the signal going to the drivers.




    Notice the missed pulses..and the noise.. I can tell that both axis are missing steps, but i dont really have a good way to compare that one has x more than the other. (i wonder if the arduino interrupts would be fast enough to sample the pulses)

    Im using the amazon special SainSmart BOB


    I also looked a bit closer and found that they were not in sync. Not out by too much about 1.5us but im not sure how close they should be either.



    So fellow CNC'er i ask you all for advice, what should i be looking at next, could it be a BOB issue, PC issue... Should i just bite the bullet and buy a smooth stepper board?

    Mods, i looked for a troubleshooting thread but came up empty handed, if this needs to be moved, please do so.

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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    First thing to do is run drivertest.exe from the Mach3 folder. Disregard the "System Excellent" message if you see it. What you're looking for is a smooth, flat line, and a steady pulse rate.

    Gerry

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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Ok, Next steps today, i did run the driver test file, however it wasn't very intuitive what i should be seeing.


    I took the parallel cable loose from the PC and probed it directly, same missing steps. No noise however.





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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Watch the pulses/second at the top, and see how steady it is.
    And the graph should be a single horizontal line, not like yours. While your isn't ideal, I'm not sure that it's the cause of your problems.

    What do you have your pulse widths set in motor tuning?

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

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    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    I tried 0 an 5 us. ... Gave up.. ordered a ESS... Should solve my issues..



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    What operating system???



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
    What operating system???
    XP sp3 x32



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Let me explain why I asked;

    Any Windows operating system after 98 doesn't give the parallel port priority with relation to time. Hence why many systems have moved away from the parallel port. The pulses can be interrupted by anything Windows deems more important, hence lost pulses. You do not have this problem is running Linux, or other operating systems.

    This may not be the problem, but be very careful to not let a screen saver or any other program run while using Mach 3. You should have no screen saver, and the power options should be set where everything stays on except possibly turning of the monitor feed, which lets the monitor power down to a sleep state.

    Your mileage may vary.

    James L



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Yeah, Windows isnt a RTOS, so im not surprised to have this issue, What i was surprised to see was that the data streams were not in sync. I would think the computer (its like a 2+ghz machine) could fire the interrupts to generate the pulses more accurately than 1.5us. I tried almost every setting i could find referenced to enable "high power, etc". It was so bad just jogging the machine around with the keyboard would cause my gantry to become unsquare. Hopefully this ESS will fix my issues, and now i can actually put a more modern PC on this machine.



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
    ~
    You do not have this problem is running Linux, or other operating systems.
    ~

    James L
    Disagree! Using the same computer (dual booting from separate SSDs in BIOS) and PP, Mach3 under Windows 7 outperforms LCNC under Debian Linux. And the latter is using a kernel with RT extensions geared towards LCNC use. I'm able to get the maximum PP step rate of 100KHz indefinitely with Mach3 but limited to 60KHz with LCNC. Granted, a certain amount of savvy is required in order to get Windows to perform this way, but the same applies to Linux.

    Last edited by eldata; 08-11-2017 at 06:37 PM.


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by eldata View Post
    Disagree!. Using the same computer (dual booting from separate SSDs in BIOS) and PP, Mach3 under Windows 7 outperforms LCNC under Debian Linux. And the latter is using a kernel with RT extensions geared towards LCNC use. I'm able to get the maximum PP step rate of 100KHz indefinitely with Mach3 but limited to 60KHz with LCNC. Granted, a certain amount of savvy is required in order to get Windows to perform this way, but the same applies to Linux.
    I stand corrected.....I'll stick to ethernet connections.

    Thanks for the education,

    James L



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Mach3 performance is very much tied to the specific PC. Some PC's run mach3 very well, and some can't run Mach3 at all.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Maybe your PC power supply had bloated caps inside that`s causing the parallel port noises, I had an experience on it several times, changed the PC power supply and all the unusual noises became flat out



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
    ~
    I'll stick to ethernet connections.
    ~

    James L
    Makes sense if that's the best you can do.



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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Mach3 performance is very much tied to the specific PC. Some PC's run mach3 very well, and some can't run Mach3 at all.
    Assuming we're talking PP performance here....First rule of thumb is to avoid laptops and COTS PCs. Secondly, a decent dedicated PP board will invariably outperform the PP provided with the ubiquitous onboard super I/O chip. Something like this;

    DSC_6044.jpg photo - Eldata photos at pbase.com

    Then there are hardware configuration, BIOS configuration, OS configuration, app configuration/avoidance and usage tips that apply to any OS (Windows or Linux) when using PP. LCNC's usage verification approach is to run a latency test while throwing everything you expect to be doing on the PC while machining parts. It then decides what's the highest step rate one can get away with. Mach3's approach, other than running the driver test, is to just not do anything else on the PC while machining parts. I've gotten better results using Mach3's approach even when not doing anything else with LCNC. Some tips are mentioned in the old post/thread below, and IIRC, Artsoft has a text file with tips on using Mach3 with Windows XP out there somewhere.

    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/genera...tml#post808594

    None of the foregoing should be anything new to seasoned PP users. OTOH, newcomers wanting to avoid these hassles, may do well by just getting an external controller (ESS /USS come to mind). It's really a pity there aren't many, if any, options in between in terms of cost.

    Last edited by eldata; 08-12-2017 at 10:05 AM.


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by propellanttech View Post
    Let me explain why I asked;

    Any Windows operating system after 98 doesn't give the parallel port priority with relation to time. Hence why many systems have moved away from the parallel port. The pulses can be interrupted by anything Windows deems more important, hence lost pulses. You do not have this problem is running Linux, or other operating systems.

    James L
    Precisely why I stopped using any Mach product, and went to LinuxCNC/Pathpilot.
    Zero issues since.. absolutely zero.

    Automated Machinery Designer - PCNC1100 Series III upgrade, Graziano Sag 12 Lathe
    Solidworks 2016 (SW Certified), HSMWorks


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Let me explain why I asked;

    Any Windows operating system after 98 doesn't give the parallel port priority with relation to time. Hence why many systems have moved away from the parallel port. The pulses can be interrupted by anything Windows deems more important, hence lost pulses. You do not have this problem is running Linux, or other operating systems.

    James L
    Quote Originally Posted by SoCalPlaneDoc View Post
    Precisely why I stopped using any Mach product, and went to LinuxCNC/Pathpilot.
    Zero issues since.. absolutely zero.
    There's probably more to this than initially meets the eye. Doesn't LCNC/PathPilot use a motion control card? If so, then you've addressed the shortcomings of software step generation whether it be using Windows or Linux. Using an external motion controller with Windows and Mach3 would achieve the same thing. I'm guessing Tormach chose LCNC because of cheaper (free?) Linux Open Source arrangements.

    Last edited by eldata; 08-12-2017 at 03:38 PM.


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    I'm guessing Tormach chose LCNC because of cheaper (free?) Linux Open Source arrangements.
    Not cheaper, but because they had full control over it. They are now the developer, and can fix bugs, and add features as needed. With Mach3, they had a dead product. No developmentr, no bug fixes.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
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    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by eldata View Post
    There's probably more to this than initially meets the eye. Doesn't LCNC/PathPilot use a motion control card?
    Not exactly. Tormach chose to use a Mesa card in in a motherboard slot, with a BOB that's "smart"... firmware controls the pinout... Then, they made a custom HMI screen, which is why the Tormach has a so-much-more professional feel. But that's just how they chose to implement LinuxCNC..

    I now have my router running the same software but using a traditional parallel IO card and C10 BOB. That router used to have Mach3 and a Galil motion controller, that was the most unstable platform I ever used. Imagine now I dont have to endure a 6 hour job stopping because that feekin hobbiest software decided to freeze up. I coudnt not walk away from it for fear of returning and finding it motionless with the router still spinning.. the lengths I had to go to to be able to recover from that were ridiculous.

    Linux runs more than fast enough on old PCs, the one on my router I bought all-up used for $260 on eBay and has never so much a burped. I was never a fan of linux in the past but now it's my best friend
    Added a touch screen, it's every bit the look-and-feel of the HAAS machines at work.

    Automated Machinery Designer - PCNC1100 Series III upgrade, Graziano Sag 12 Lathe
    Solidworks 2016 (SW Certified), HSMWorks


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    Default Re: Mach3 - BOB - Loosing steps

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Not cheaper, but because they had full control over it. They are now the developer, and can fix bugs, and add features as needed. With Mach3, they had a dead product. No developmentr, no bug fixes.
    Bad guess on my part. Thanks for the correction.



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