Which Hiwin Rail?


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Thread: Which Hiwin Rail?

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    Default Which Hiwin Rail?

    I'm hoping to start a CNC build soon, along the lines of this:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/diy-cn...-next-cnc.html

    I have been searching all over for linear rails and blocks, and I've read through the FAQ on them, and gather they're super beefy generally and often people go larger than needed. But, I haven't been able to figure out the difference between some of the letters yet, or between the medium duty, and heavy duty rail. For instance, on automationoverstock.com I've been thinking of either the AG, medium duty rails (either 25mm to get the length or maybe 25mm and look into a butt joint)
    overstock & surplus automation products: Linear Bearings/Rail, Medium Duty Blocks/Rail

    or, the heavy duty LG series rail (more expensive, and again, 25mm gets me the length with no splices, but smaller is cheaper):
    overstock & surplus automation products: Linear Bearings/Rail, Heavy Duty Blocks/Rail

    I'll start an actual build log soon, post some drawings and dimensions, and credit the other builds I've been pulling ideas from, but basically I want to build a fairly sturdy steel welded machine - probably 4" square tube, .25 wall frame, 8" or 10" tall gantry, again .25 wall, etc. so it will have some decent weight. NEMA 34s, geared down... any recomendations on the above rails, or known differences in accuracy between the two?

    Dameronw

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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Just go to HiWin's website.



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    I would say 25mm rail is probably ideal. 20mm a little on the small side but would work fine for a long time. 30mm are big and you would have to design your build to accommodate them.
    Automation overstock sells surplus Hiwin bearings. I dont think Hiwin's website has information for them as they've discontinued selling them. I had to download the Hiwin manual from Automation Overstock and search it to find my answers. The main difference in the bearings is their rated load, their size and mounting holes. LG is their heavy duty series, AG is more suitable for high speed machines (direct from thier manual). I am building a heavy machine similiar to yours it sounds, and I went with the AG series. Both series are accurate and precise and I dont think you could go wrong with either one.



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Anything over 20mm is serious overkill, and a waste of money, imo, unless you get a very good deal on it. The $150,000 routers I use at work use 25mm rails, and carry thousands of lbs of weight.
    Even 15mm is probably overkill for a DIY machine, but are very small and can be harder to work with. 20mm blocks are nearly twice the size of 15mm blocks.
    Here's a picture of a 15mm and a 20mm LG block from Automation Overstock:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...3&d=1346588124

    Gerry

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    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Awesome, thanks for the info guys.

    1jumper10, that's exactly the kind of info I was looking for, but couldn't find.

    And Ger21, thanks for the info on size - confirms what I was thinking. I'll start making orders here soon...



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    I disagree totally, if politely.

    Strength is not the issue, rigidity is.
    A bigger block + rail is vastly more rigid than a smaller one.

    HAAS is on the low end, with 35 mm on smallest machines, and 45 mm on the bigger ones.
    Japanese machines are much heavier, more rigid, and are universally seen as much better.

    A 32 mm screw has 54 kgf / um rigidity.
    A 25 mm screw has about 30% less.
    Tables online.

    If you can afford it, always go for bigger blocks, rails, screws, heavier frames.
    Typical loads on lathes and machine tools are about 2% of breaking strength.
    There is an excellent reason for this.

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    Anything over 20mm is serious overkill, and a waste of money, imo, unless you get a very good deal on it. The $150,000 routers I use at work use 25mm rails, and carry thousands of lbs of weight.
    Even 15mm is probably overkill for a DIY machine, but are very small and can be harder to work with. 20mm blocks are nearly twice the size of 15mm blocks.
    Here's a picture of a 15mm and a 20mm LG block from Automation Overstock:
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...3&d=1346588124




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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    He's not building a HAAS.

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    I've used 15mm and 25mm on my machine. The silly part is that by sourcing more intelligently I paid about the same price for 25mm as the 15mm so I'll stick with 25mm from here on.

    Rod Webster
    www.vmn.com.au


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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    True.
    It was a reference, example, only.

    I used 35 mm on my mill, overconstrained.
    Bwdik.

    Quote Originally Posted by ger21 View Post
    He's not building a HAAS.




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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Quote Originally Posted by hanermo View Post
    I disagree totally, if politely.

    Strength is not the issue, rigidity is.
    A bigger block + rail is vastly more rigid than a smaller one.

    HAAS is on the low end, with 35 mm on smallest machines, and 45 mm on the bigger ones.
    Japanese machines are much heavier, more rigid, and are universally seen as much better.

    A 32 mm screw has 54 kgf / um rigidity.
    A 25 mm screw has about 30% less.
    Tables online.

    If you can afford it, always go for bigger blocks, rails, screws, heavier frames.
    Typical loads on lathes and machine tools are about 2% of breaking strength.
    There is an excellent reason for this.
    Rails are only as rigid as the machine they're bolted on to. The rails and blocks on HAAS machines are roller not ball. But they're bolted onto heavy castings and fixed against a datum edge, not steel plate and steel tube used on DIY builds. When your LM rails are stiffer than your frame components, it's time to think more reasonably about what LM rails are really needed for the job.



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    I'm Kent with Automation Overstock, and since our name has come up here several times, I thought I'd chime in with a new slant on this. When we bought all the old Hiwin "Legacy" AG and LG about eight years ago, I didn't think we'd sell it all in my lifetime. HA! We've now pretty much exhausted all of the 15mm, 20mm and 25mm that is favored by most builders. For this reason, I've searched for, vetted and am now stocking a good-quality profile guideway in these sizes. In each size I have rails out to 4000mm, and carriages come in either the flange or narrow/square design. These are all in my warehouse in North Carolina, and we will cut your rail to exactly what you require (as we always have). Perhaps best of all with this material is that it is 100% compatible with and interchangeable with the current-production Hiwin HG carriages and rails. These are 4-row bearing design. To explain a but further, you can literally take a Hiwin HGW20CCZ0C carriage and install it on our new rail product....or you can take one of our BLH20F carriages (which is our equivalent to HGW20CCZ0C) and put it on Hiwin HGR20R rail. I think this is incredibly important in that it ensures that you will not end up with obsolete and difficult-to-replace products. I have hundreds of rails and hundreds of carriages of each size in my warehouse. I intend to continue to offer and support these products. But it's nice to know that this interchangeable concept exists. Check out this new offering at our website: Automation Overstock, surplus automation equipment, overstock automation devices, manufacturer overruns, linear bearings, variable speed drives, circuit breakers, contactors, starters, relays



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Hi Kent,

    I've been perusing your site a lot lately, and saw the products your talking about. I've been planning my build around the 15mm and 20mm rails - they seem like a great idea and a decent price point. Hopefully will have a build thread started soon, depending on what else life throws my way.

    Dameronw



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Kent, That's good to know. It sounds like a good stateside option for linear bearings. I wish I would have known about them back in February when I bought my 30mm units from you. At the time you didn't list any of the 20 or 25mm unit's I initially wanted. No big deal. Anything worth doing is worth over-doing 😀

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Sorry I didn't have the new BLH products at the time you were shopping. It took me a long time to find a manufacturing partner I could depend on, and then it took several months to get the volume of material I wanted to be produced. Not many manufacturers are going to have hundreds of carriages and hundreds of rails sitting around. It also takes about a month for ocean shipping. In short, it was nearly an 8-month project to get where we are today. The most crucial part to me was that I wanted to offer a product that would be 100% compatible with and interchangeable with Hiwin's HG series in 15mm, 20mm and 25mm. We've been in this business a long time, and we intend to stay here. But I can't with clear conscience sell a guideway to someone not knowing that replacement parts can be obtained. It is my intent that the BLH series will be an economical alternative, readily available from a USA warehouse.



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    No worries. It's all good. I'm glad you got your new product line up and running. Sounds like a winner.

    Sent from my Pixel XL using Tapatalk



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    Default Re: Which Hiwin Rail?

    Hi Kent,
    I know this is a long shot, vague question, but what rail / bearing size would you recommend for a 7x16 lathe build? The base will be epoxy granite.
    The load calculations on the Hiwin PDFs left me dazed and confused. I know there are literally hundreds of possible variables (ie what are you cutting, speed, feed, hss or carbide insert) etc. But I just don't want to follow the over-sizing everyone seems to do. I mean, is it enough to get 15mm system? Or should I go for 20 or 25?
    Thanks,



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