Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos

[sagada]

hey hey CKM
am happy to see am not the only one retrofitting this machine, i did bought a complete system from machmotion with a touch screen and gecko drive and the spindle control interface...
Presently i am at the point of looking at it on a table i am looking for stepper motor since i want to see the system working on the table (wich one do you suggest me to replace the original one since i don't need the encoder at the back) i would like to stay with nema34 like you said it is mounted with that size..
what is making me worry is the spindle and the tool changer i was told by machmotion there are no hardware to make it work for the moment and the spindle drive is very old i did open it and clean all parts like new but it still old technology it would be nice to replace this unit..'
i have a dm4400 and a dm4000 wich run great but i want to replace the electronic with new technology....

[ckm]

hey hey CKM
am happy to see am not the only one retrofitting this machine, i did bought a complete system from machmotion with a touch screen and gecko drive and the spindle control interface...
Presently i am at the point of looking at it on a table i am looking for stepper motor since i want to see the system working on the table (wich one do you suggest me to replace the original one since i don't need the encoder at the back) i would like to stay with nema34 like you said it is mounted with that size..
what is making me worry is the spindle and the tool changer i was told by machmotion there are no hardware to make it work for the moment and the spindle drive is very old i did open it and clean all parts like new but it still old technology it would be nice to replace this unit..'
i have a dm4400 and a dm4000 wich run great but i want to replace the electronic with new technology....

You don't specify what kind of Geckos you got from Mach motion. If you are going to replace the motors, servos are the way to go, which would require the 3xx series from Gecko (I'm using the 320s). The reason for this is pretty simple, the mill is quite large to use steppers. It'll work, but they will probably get very hot given the amount of power required. However, whether you use servos or steppers, Keling (http://www.kelinginc.net/) is the best source I have found for motors. I bought three motors from them and a power supply.

As far as the spindle goes, if the current drive works, you can re-use it. The biggest problem with it is that it expects a -10 to +10 vdc signal. -10 is full speed reverse, +10 is full speed forward, with 0vdc being stop. Most of the spindle drive boards only produce 0 vdc to +10vdc, so you only have one direction. A clever circuit could swap the voltage, but no one has created one yet.

The tool changer is not that hard to deal with (see one of my previous posts for the logic and other details), but you will need more inputs that you currently have. The best way to deal with it would be a PLC, but they are not cheap, although I've recently found CuBloc (http://cubloc.com/product/01_01.php) which has really cheap PLCs. I was planning to use the Mach3 'brains' feature with a ModBus interface from CNC4PC, but Cubloc may be better.

HTH,

Chris.

[sagada]

CKM
i am using the 201 gecko since it was suggested to me....what i am looking for are the steppers that would replace the one from the dm4400 with about the same power or more and with 4 wires to connect them i was told the encoder would not be required since the software would take care of the position..
i do not required large stepper since am only doing plastic and aluminum parts in large quantity i need speed and trying to keep the stepper as cold as i can so if you have any sugg i would appreciate very much.
as far as the spindle i do not require a -10 v to reverse the spindle since i never did for the last 13 years...
i appreciate your time
many thanks

Rejean

http://www.machmotion.com/product_in...products_id=89

[ckm]

CKM
i am using the 201 gecko since it was suggested to me....what i am looking for are the steppers that would replace the one from the dm4400 with about the same power or more and with 4 wires to connect them i was told the encoder would not be required since the software would take care of the position..
i do not required large stepper since am only doing plastic and aluminum parts in large quantity i need speed and trying to keep the stepper as cold as i can so if you have any sugg i would appreciate very much.

Well, servos are better suited to this size machine and would be faster. You should never just buy hardware without first doing some research on what is needed to meet your requirements. I know the 4400 already uses steppers, but it's 20 year old technology at this point.....

Anyway, Marcus (from GeckoDrive) has some good tips here: http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=52090
Keep in mind that there is a 5-1 belt drive built into the 4400c.

Keling's stepper page is here http://www.kelinginc.net/NEMA34Motor.html
You'll also need a power supply that can drive those, if you search on CNCzone, you will find posts about how to calculate the power supply size.

One problem you will have to solve is that the current drives have 3/8" drive shafts and most NEMA34 steppers are 1/2". The motor couplings are generic Lovejoy couplings, although the size in use does not support 1/2", so you'll have to be creative.

HTH,

Chris.

[sagada]

CKM
ISSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH about machmotion and their advice..
)(&*^%$##@!~~!@

[ckm]

CKM
ISSSSHHHHHHHHHHHHH about machmotion and their advice..
)(&*^%$##@!~~!@

Well, their stuff is really expensive. I'm putting together a touchscreen control panel with a LOT more physical buttons for less than $1000.

Here's a picture of the layout (click for a larger image).



That's a 19" anodized black aluminum panel with color filed engraved markings.

I bought 2 and 3 way switches in bulk, as well as a bunch of push buttons. There are two potentiometers, which were the most expensive things, and the whole panel talks to Mach3 via USB. The monitor is a 3M touchscreen 15" diag. Controlling all the is an Intel Mini-ITX computer with a solid state harddrive and a 12V power supply. The spindle is being driven by a Minarik 5HP DC drive instead of the Servo Dynamics unit.

Total cost so far for the panel is around $600. I have another $700 or so in electronics for the motors and toolchanger, including the breakout board and Geckos. The total cost of the conversion, including the new servos, is around $2300, plus my time.

The only thing I haven't yet bought is a pendant with an MPG. I really like the Homann Designs pendant, but it's really, really expensive. CNC4PC has some really good designs that are 1/2 the price.

I did, however, spend a whole lot more stupid money on stuff I am not going to use, although I might use some of it for a lathe I'd like to CNC. Basically, almost everything that you need is available from two vendors, Keling and CNC4pc. You can spend a lot of time (and money) looking elsewhere, but it's not really worth it.

The control panel is somewhat of a pain, but it's just a bunch of switches and a screen. Most of the hardware is available from Automation Direct or eBay. I spent a HUGE amount of time researching control panel layout and the result is mostly a copy of Matsuura control panels. Fanuc are also good ones to copy.

Chris.

[sagada]

CKM
very very nice am learning a lot from you the next machine will be different....for the moment i will to use what i have since everything is paid
i will make this one work with steppper since everything has been set up for those...
your pendant wowwwwwwwwwwww , i did ask machmotion for a removable one but they told me it was not available for their system another @#$#@@......
i will probably do the dm4000 with the system i have and the dm4400 with another one.......
many thanks for your knownledge..

rejean

[123CNC]

CKM,

If you don't mind revealing your source, where did you pickup your "Intel MicroATX computer with a solid state harddrive?" I'm having a tough time finding a reasonably priced SSD. Does the MB have good old fashioned PCI slots?

[ckm]

123CNC,

The MB has one PCI slot, and all the typical ports, including parallel and serial. It's an Intel D201GLY2, a pretty common compact desktop board. You can find them online for $60-$70. The SSD is a Super Talent 4GB IDE unit. It was $150, I got it off eBay, but there are a fair number available at various online stores for roughly the same price. You can search for D201GLY2 and "4GB IDE Flash" and find a fair number of both of those.

The power supply is from mini-box.com and is powered by 12vdc. It's model picoPSU-90. MiniBox has a lot of stuff that could be of use for CNC builders, including specialized power control units with set startup sequences.

The touch screen is a 3M ChassisTouch 15". One of the things I have to deal with is that I have one serial port and two serial devices, the touchscreen being one of them. So I'm going to get a PCI serial card that will give me two more ports.

BTW, if you are looking for an extra parallel card, I suggest you strongly consider a SmoothStepper USB interface instead. It will give you two parallel ports through a single USB port, a good thing since most computers have at least 6 USB ports and no parallel ports.

There are two stores where I often look for cheap-ish computer stuff:

http://www.thenerds.net/
http://www.geeks.com/

http://www.pricewatch.com/ - Good search engine for computer junk

HTH,

Chris.

[ckm]

your pendant wowwwwwwwwwwww , i did ask machmotion for a removable one but they told me it was not available for their system another

I'm sure you can add a pendant from CNC4pc or Homann if you want. The CNC4pc ones are quite reasonable and all you need is free parallel or serial port.

Chris

[ckm]

I finally got my new control panel today, looks great. Here are two pictures. The first is unpopulated, the second is populated. I wired up 1/2 the switches tonight, will do the other 1/2 tomorrow. They are wired to an Ipac USB controller. The distortion is my camera, not the panel, it's flat.

[ckm]

Thought I'd post an update of my control panel. Here are some pictures of it wired up to an A-pac USB controller. You just plug it into USB, map your buttons and you're off. The only thing left to wire is the E-stop, which will breakout to a different plug.

The pictures show the A-pac on a carrier board, all wired in. The rest of the pictures show the wiring to switches, and the wiring to the board. One problem I am facing is that I am two connections short, so I might upgrade this to a 48 port unit.

Chris.

[sagada]

CKM
very nice

R

[ckm]

One problem I am facing is that I am two connections short, so I might upgrade this to a 48 port unit.

Just thought I'd update this as I've figured out how to deal with the connection shortage. It turns out that one of the A-pac inputs is a 'shift' key, which doubles the number of connections. So all I have to do is wire both shift and two wires to a single input, and I've got almost 60 inputs...

Chris.

[olfoundryman]

Help!
When I switch on my DM4400 (skip system) the controller says "READY?" but will not respond to the YES or NO answer that is required - it beeps so it is registering that a button has been pushed but thats all. After a variable period of time - half an hour eight hours whatever, different every day and some days it will not respond at all - it will suddenly decide to respond and behave as it should. I can switch off and on after a correct response and it will respond correctly until the next day when same problem again - driving me nuts anyone got any ideas?

Martin in Australia

[ckm]

Help!
When I switch on my DM4400 (skip system) the controller says "READY?" but will not respond to the YES or NO answer that is required - it beeps so it is registering that a button has been pushed but thats all. After a variable period of time - half an hour eight hours whatever, different every day and some days it will not respond at all - it will suddenly decide to respond and behave as it should. I can switch off and on after a correct response and it will respond correctly until the next day when same problem again - driving me nuts anyone got any ideas?

I would check a couple of things:

1. Check for loose connections, particularly in the control end. You can open up the control panel and make sure everything is seated properly
2. Check the startup delay timer. It's in the bottom of the electronics cabinet, on the left side panel when standing at the back of the mill looking towards the front (there is a picture of it upthread), looks like a grey box with a knob on the top.
3. There are diagnostics on the spindle board (just to the right of the spindle driver). See if there is anything displayed (it would be a number). Also check the spindle amp for an error light.

That's all I can think of off the top of my head. I look at the manuals when I get a chance.

Chris.

[olfoundryman]

Chris,
Thank you for you input - I value it greatly. My situation is that I lack the electronic knowledge to do the sort of upgrade that you are doing. So if I can not get the machine going reliably in its original form it is just expensive scrap metal and that would be a pity as it is nicely sized (for me) and seems a very well built and solid machine. To clarify a bit, the response that I get (when and if it happens) is not immediately after pushing either the YES or NO button – typically I switch on, get the READY? message and press NO and nothing happens, but an hour (say) later when walking past the machine I notice that the display now says AXIS? Sometime during that hour the machine has “decided” to respond as it should. It will continue to respond properly to all commands for the remainder of the day even if I switch off and on again, but the next day it will again fail to respond. It is as if some component needs to warm up and once warm it is ok until it cools down overnight again.
I have checked the internals of both the controller and controller module for loose connections or other obvious signs of problems – all seems OK. The two 3.9 V batteries in these units are a bit down, 2.4 V in the controller and 3. 5 V in the module, I have new batteries on order but they are 6 weeks away yet.
I assume that your directions are from the perspective of standing in front of the machine as when I open the electronics cabinet (standing at and facing the rear of the machine) the grey timer is on the bottom left. There is a white timer slightly higher up on the right. The grey timer is set on 6 seconds. I note that it has a red indicator light near its bottom right corner. The only time this indicator comes on is when the machine is switched OFF, the indicator stays on for the 6 seconds and then goes off with an audible click so I guess the timer is working OK – yes?
The Spindle board diagnostic led says “0” while the READY? is displayed, when the machine does respond this changes to either “4” or “5” depending on the spindle drive belt setting – as it should - yes?
There are currently no error lights on the spindle amp.
I did have a ground fault led light up on the spindle amp a week or so back but I have solved that problem, and the last time that the machine did respond it initialized, spindle and all, as it should. (I notice from various forums that this ground fault is a common problem that not everyone confronted with it has managed to solve. Time permitting I hope soon to do a post on how I fixed this problem)
I have checked every fuse and plug that I can find everywhere in the machine and all seem ok. In the machines all too brief moments of lucidity I was able to check that it would run a program correctly and that the tool changer seems to function properly.
An acquaintance, who cut his electronic teeth on machines of this era when they were new, has suggested that I should replace all capacitors, or at least those in the various power supplies, as over the 20years since the machine was built they may well have dried out and be no longer working properly – what do you think of this idea?
I have some concerns about the hard drive type cable that goes from the controller module through the consul swivel joint to the APU board in the electronics cabinet – 20 years of swivelling may have damaged it. I am going to get a 10 foot long hard drive cable made up and quickly try it external to the consul support bracket. Incidentally the APU led also says “0”
I have a copy of the DM4000/4400 Maintenance and Service manual, a manual for the SD 3060 Spindle amp, and a poor copy of the DM4000 / DM4400 Operating and Programing Manual. None of which seem to help. I have twice tried to contact DYNA to see what other manuals might be available but they have not replied either time.

I would be most grateful for any further thoughts that you may have on this problem – I am fair tearing my hair out!

Martin, From a very cold Melbourne – well - cold for Melbourne

Old foundry men never die they just melt away.

[ckm]

Chris,
Thank you for you input - I value it greatly.

Thanks, appreciate that.

My situation is that I lack the electronic knowledge to do the sort of upgrade that you are doing. So if I can not get the machine going reliably in its original form it is just expensive scrap metal and that would be a pity as it is nicely sized (for me) and seems a very well built and solid machine.

The upgrade is not that hard, esp. if you don't really need the tool changer and you spend the money on new stuff rather than re-using the old Dyna stuff. The hardest part will be the tool changer, everything else has been done by a lot of people on other machines, and the Dyna stuff was fairly standard sizes.

However, I'm sure it won't go to scrap as you can probably find someone to help you with a conversion if you want to go that route. If that doesn't work out, someone in Oz will be happy to have it, I'm sure. But we aren't there yet.

One quick question: Have you ever had this machine working or is it new to you?

To clarify a bit, the response that I get (when and if it happens) is not immediately after pushing either the YES or NO button – typically I switch on, get the READY? message and press NO and nothing happens, but an hour (say) later when walking past the machine I notice that the display now says AXIS? Sometime during that hour the machine has “decided” to respond as it should. It will continue to respond properly to all commands for the remainder of the day even if I switch off and on again, but the next day it will again fail to respond. It is as if some component needs to warm up and once warm it is ok until it cools down overnight again.

I would get some good electronics contact cleaner, and with the machine fully off and unplugged, plug and unplug every single connector and clean it. Do it one at a time to avoid confusing things and be careful of brittle plastic and cables. The card edge connectors (those are the ones that have a connector etched into the circuit board) are notorious for corrosion, in particular I would check the axis drives. They 'eject' with two tabs top and bottom. You'll have to unplug the motor connector to get them fully out.

The other thing I would check is the limit switches. The limit switches on this machine are normally open, and are somewhat problematic. You can unscrew them from the machine and take them apart. Be careful as there is a spring inside. The design is very simple, just a plunger that makes a contact, but it's not water tight.

I have checked the internals of both the controller and controller module for loose connections or other obvious signs of problems – all seems OK. The two 3.9 V batteries in these units are a bit down, 2.4 V in the controller and 3. 5 V in the module, I have new batteries on order but they are 6 weeks away yet.

That might be an issue. Not much you can do other than wait for new batteries... I believe there is also a battery inside the plastic console thingy.

I assume that your directions are from the perspective of standing in front of the machine as when I open the electronics cabinet (standing at and facing the rear of the machine) the grey timer is on the bottom left. There is a white timer slightly higher up on the right. The grey timer is set on 6 seconds. I note that it has a red indicator light near its bottom right corner. The only time this indicator comes on is when the machine is switched OFF, the indicator stays on for the 6 seconds and then goes off with an audible click so I guess the timer is working OK – yes?

Yes that sounds about right. If you leave the machine on, does the auto-lube go off? Makes a bang like noise...

The Spindle board diagnostic led says “0” while the READY? is displayed, when the machine does respond this changes to either “4” or “5” depending on the spindle drive belt setting – as it should - yes?
There are currently no error lights on the spindle amp.

Sounds like the electronics may be working OK

An acquaintance, who cut his electronic teeth on machines of this era when they were new, has suggested that I should replace all capacitors, or at least those in the various power supplies, as over the 20years since the machine was built they may well have dried out and be no longer working properly – what do you think of this idea?

Well, there are only three power supplies in the whole machine:

1. 12vdc and 5vdc - this feeds the electronics
2. 48vdc - this feeds the motors
3. 180vdc - inside the servo drive (it also has a 15vdc in it)

You can fairly easily check 1&2, they are in gray boxes above the servo drive. Just use a multi-meter to see if you are getting the correct voltages (they are marked on the front panels). There are also terminal strips with voltages marked above them, you might check if there is the correct voltage with it's up and running.

Also, when you turn the key and press 'ON', both PSUs should come on as well. The small one is working (perhaps not optimally) otherwise there would be no numbers on the APU and spindle boards...

I have some concerns about the hard drive type cable that goes from the controller module through the consul swivel joint to the APU board in the electronics cabinet – 20 years of swivelling may have damaged it. I am going to get a 10 foot long hard drive cable made up and quickly try it external to the consul support bracket. Incidentally the APU led also says “0”

I don't think it's that. I took my console apart and the cable looked perfect. It's worth an look, I guess. I have a tendency to think that the machine is not finding limits properly, so it's probably either a voltage/ground problem or the limit switches are not work right. There are also a couple of limit switches on the toolchanger that will cause weird problems if they are not working. One is a proximity sensor. One thing I would do is, when you have this problem, take the cover off the tool changer and move it to the furthest most parked position (away from the spindle) manually. Also, make sure that the power drawbar is closed, not open.

I have a copy of the DM4000/4400 Maintenance and Service manual, a manual for the SD 3060 Spindle amp, and a poor copy of the DM4000 / DM4400 Operating and Programing Manual. None of which seem to help. I have twice tried to contact DYNA to see what other manuals might be available but they have not replied either time.

Try contacting services [at] dynamechtronics.com and address it to Roberto. He was pretty helpful earlier this year. You might have to call to get a real response, but they were pretty good on email. Keep in mind that many people are on vacation right now, so that may play a part.

HTH,

Chris.

[olfoundryman]

Chris,
Wow, another really excellent reply – I am most grateful.
I can see that I will be busy tomorrow checking out all the things that you have suggested.
The upgrade might not be hard for someone who has the foibles of electronic circuits down pat but for the electronically challenged like me it is a daunting prospect. As the years roll by – and way too many of them have - I become more and more disappointed in myself for not having taken electronics up as a subject of study and recreation - seems one can do such wonderful things with a few transistors etc it would be a joy to know how.
I do realise that eventually I may well have to upgrade but I would like to put it off for a while and get some use from the machine in the meantime. I would not be happy to loose the tool changing ability, for me and the work I have waiting for the machine it is a necessity. I got the machine during a quiet time in my little foundry. The idea was to help me make dies a little less simple than those I can manage with my cheap and nasty centre late and old Cincinnati No 2 vertical mill (it’s a beast). The day the machine arrived the phone started to ring and I had castings a plenty to make - barely got the machine cleaned down and did not have any real time to try it out. Now that it has got quiet again I am back at the machine. So I guess that I have not really had it working. However I have got it to run the program that the last owner used for about 9 years and when it does respond to the READY? it seems to do everything ok. That’s what makes it so frustrating – when it works it works well.
I have managed to measure some of those voltages, Power supply 1, 11.8 v dc and 5 v dc, power supply 2, 55 v dc – seems a bit high? readings taken with an AVO analogue meter. Both supplies have lit up leds.
To be honest that hard drive cable seemed a little unlikely to me too as if it had been bad I would have expected much more intermittent behaviour not the once its working it stays working that I get. Clutching at straws I guess.
I have already had the Z pogo apart and cleaned it with paper towel but I guess I had better repeat it and do the X and Y with contact cleaner.
Re batteries the 2.4 volt reading battery is the one in the plastic consul thingy, to my knowledge there are only the two in the machine. I obtained a complete spare set of cards/boards from another DM 4400 owner who has done a conversion. Unfortunately the spare consul seems totally dead.
ReAuto-lube the only noise that it seems to make is from the white timer – it too makes a click a few seconds after the machine turns off – no noise at all from it while the machine is on. However oil is definitely getting to where it should - the level in the reservoir goes down even while the machine is sitting there saying READY? but not responding. Level drops about 1/16 inch in 6 to 8 hours, all slide ways etc are noticeably wet with oil.
However a couple of things that I have noticed
1. There is a small white board to the right of the Y steeper motor housing (as you stand at the back of the machine looking into the electronics cabinet) There is a red LED in the centre of this board, it is lit as soon as power to the machine is turned on but goes out when the ON button on the consul is pressed. Is this as it should be?
2. On the right side of the electronics cabinet there is a board labelled “A AXIS” near its lower edge and “C AXIS” near its upper edge. There are lots of relays on this board. There are two “lamps” on this board. When the display is saying READY? the one at the bottom is lit the one at the top is sometimes lit and sometimes not and sometimes it flickers, this does not impress me as being right but is it?
Will let you know what happens as I work through all your suggestions.
Once again thanks.

Regards Martin,
Old foundry men never die they just loose their pattern

[olfoundryman]

Chris,
As a result of your suggestions I have done the following:
1. Unplugged every connector that I could find in the machine – even the ones on the steppers. I removed the axes and tool changer cards as part of this process. All plugs and sockets were washed down with a pressure pack contact cleaner, allowed to dry and then reassembled.
2. Pulled apart and cleaned the three limit switches, again using the pressure pack contact
cleaner. The X and Y switches were a little oily inside.
3. Rechecked those two batteries that are in the console and console module they actually
read 3.6 v and 3.51 v so I doubt that they would be a problem.
4. Adjusted the stepper power supply output down to 48 v
5. Tried a new ribbon cable from console to APU board (just ran it external)
6. Moved tool changer as far away from spindle as possible as per your instructions.
7. Checked that power drawbar was closed.
8. Checked for obvious faults like burnt or blackened electronic components – everything
looks pristine. All solder joints look good.
9. Using a hot air blower warmed everything up a little as symptoms were like those of
something needing to warm up and being ok when it did (Clutching a straws again I
know, but I saw the straw floating by on the surface of the water above me!)

These things I did one at a time over the last two days but unfortunately not one made any difference – I still get the READY? - but still the machine will not respond to the mandatory YES or NO answer that is required. It is as though the machine does some initial and unknown internal diagnostic as it “boots up” finds a fault (which it does not tell us about) and therefore will not respond to the YES or NO.

If you have any other ideas I would be most grateful to hear them but in any case thank you for your efforts thus far they have been very much appreciated. Even though success has not yet been achieved in solving this most vexing of “teething” troubles the last two days have been quite instructive - I have learned a lot about the machin.

Regards,
Martin
Old foundry men never die they just loose their “sand"