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Thread: Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos

  1. #13
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    It's a bed mill, see the brochures above. Pict no2 clearly shows this. I posted here as there are other Dyna threads here and I was not sure where else it would go since all Dyna's are bed mills...

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    I'm ckm's buddy at "the shop"....it's a KILLER machine, just the fact of getting a fun thing to get'it going will be so much fun. ckm is a total brainniac....so doing the cnc upgrades will be great.....peace!!!!



  3. #15
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    Default Spindle drive fixes and retrofit boards...

    Well, I had been hoping to post that my Servo Dynamics SD-3030 spindle drive was fixed, but it's not quite yet. I repaired a bunch of burned out wiring in the power supply. It turns out that the OEM put wire ties every 1/2 inch on all the wires. Great, but over what I guess are power resistors, the ties were so tight that when the wire insulation got brittle due to the heat, the ties just wore through.

    The net effect of this was that the fan stopped working, causing further wiring failure. I replaced everything with automotive grade wiring, which solved some of the spindle problems (e.g. now the spindle turns on initialization). However, I was still having an error during initialization. The spindle would spin up, then the drive would error out with an over-voltage error. Careful examination of the 6 rectifier diodes revealed one with clear burn marks. It was replaced.

    I thought this would be the end of it, but the drive still errors out at initialization with the same behavior (spins up for 10 seconds, then errors with overvoltage). Resetting the drive produces a large buzzing sound from what appears to be the power supply. I suspect that more of the rectifier diodes are bad, but am not sure. The DC drive voltage reads 80v and I haven't had time to check the bus voltage coming from the power supply yet.

    The manual stats that the error led is as follows:

    Code:
    Voltage - This LED will give an indication for these conditions:
    
    1) Bus voltage has exceeded 195 VDC, this condition can exist if:
        a) The shunt regulator fuses are blown
        b) A regulator is required to handle regenerative motor 
            energy, while decelerating, due to excessively high 
            inertia.
    
    2) The sum of the +/- 15 Volt Bias supply is less than 28 Volts 
        DC.  This condition can exist if a line transient causes 
        the bias supply to dip momentarily or the bias supply has 
        failed.  Check bias supply fuse.
    I checked the shut regulator fuses, and they are OK, and there is a regulator. Also, since the noise on reset exists at dead stop, it would seem that the problem is elsewhere.... I also checked the bias supply fuse and the voltage sum. Both seem OK.

    The power supply seems pretty simple. It's basically six rectifier diodes that rectify the incoming 3-phase AC into DC, then pass it to a large filter capacitor. There is also circuitry for shunt regulator which feeds three large resistors. I don't know enough about power drives to understand the whole thing, but it seems that the only two places that could generate overvoltage would be either the cap or the rectifier diodes. I suppose the switching MOSFETs on the shunt regulator could also be bad, but this would not explain the buzzing on reset.... Or it could be wired to the wrong ends on the transformer (hmmm, should check that first...). My next step is to test the power supply more thoroughly, starting with the rest of the diodes and the capacitor.

    The other possibility is the power output stage of the amp, which is a bunch of MOSFETs driven in PWM fashion at 2Khz. One interesting thing was that when I disconnected the control and tach inputs, then started the machine, the drive went into run-away mode, something I did not expect. I thought that enable and signal were necessary at least for the thing to run. This may or may not indicate a problem with the amp itself. I'm going to take the heatsink off the MOSFETs to see if I can divine anything from their looks...

    Regardless, I've been trolling ebay and the 'net to find a reasonably cheap replacement. If anyone knows of a 150-180v 6HP (~30-40A) DC motor controller with integrated power supply for a reasonable price, please tell me. I do have an AMC controller of the right size coming, but no power supply... In the meantime, I'm continuing to troubleshoot the amp as best I can. I have an o-scope and various other electronics testing tools, as well as the manual for the amp, but I don't know an enormous amount about these things, so it's slow going.

    In other news, I designed and had made some breakout boards to convert the existing control system to Mach3. They arrived today. I now have most everything I need for a conversion, so I'm going to start on that next week.

    If anyone has ever worked on a Servo Dynamics drive and has some pointers, I'd be grateful if you'd be willing to share your wisdom.

    Thx.

    Chris.

    Last edited by ckm; 02-07-2008 at 02:53 AM. Reason: speling mistacs
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


  4. #16
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    I have a 4400M and I really like what I read about the retrofitting. But, just so I understand, there is no way to retro with the AC servo drives....right?



  5. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonebarnfarm View Post
    I have a 4400M and I really like what I read about the retrofitting. But, just so I understand, there is no way to retro with the AC servo drives....right?
    I don't know for sure, having never seen a 4400M. Theoretically, it is possible, but you have to figure out what signal the controller sends to the amplifier/servo drive. If it's a step/dir style signal, that's not that hard to retrofit. If it's a +/-10v signal (likely), then it's harder, particularly since the one place that was selling step/dir to +/-10v converters has stopped doing so. There may be others, but I don't know who they are.... Most of the upgrade paths people discuss on CNCzone involve controllers that speak step/dir rather than +/-10v and it seems that industry is moving towards step/dir even for servos, so you need amplifiers/drives that speak step/dir.

    In extremis, you could replace the servo drives all together with drives from Granite Devices (http://www.granitedevices.fi/ about $250 ea) that should drive your AC motors, but that would push up the cost a bit.

    It's definitely doable, but you may have to replace way more parts that in a 4400C which uses step/dir.

    HTH,

    Chris.

    Last edited by ckm; 02-19-2008 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Granite drives more expensive than I thought...
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    Do you know of anyone who has done this with the Granite Devices drives?

    I was thinking of going with Mach3. All I would need is 3 new drives from Granite Devices and a breakout board. I still should be able to use the power supply from the mill itself as well as all the other existing basic controls. (Limit switches, coolent pumping system, oiling system, for example). I would strip out the tool changer. I think I would also have to replace the spindle motor and control unless there is some way to replace the just the control with something that would work with the motor. Maybe I could get the whole thing done for $1000 to $1500??



  7. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonebarnfarm View Post
    Do you know of anyone who has done this with the Granite Devices drives?

    I was thinking of going with Mach3. All I would need is 3 new drives from Granite Devices and a breakout board. I still should be able to use the power supply from the mill itself as well as all the other existing basic controls. (Limit switches, coolent pumping system, oiling system, for example). I would strip out the tool changer. I think I would also have to replace the spindle motor and control unless there is some way to replace the just the control with something that would work with the motor. Maybe I could get the whole thing done for $1000 to $1500??
    I don't know anyone that has used the Granite Devices drives, sorry. But the fact that it was basically developed on CNCzone is encouraging. You might be able to get them to send you a single unit to see if it will work with your motors.

    I would leave the tool changer in. By using the new 'brains' feature of Mach3 and a modbus controller, you can get it working. If it's like mine, it's just a motor with two switches controlling the swing and a stepper rotating the tools (it's treated as the A-axis and has a step/dir interface). There is a hall sensor under the forward pulley, on the right side of the mill, it tells the control what position the spindle is in and acts as a tach as well. The only really complicated thing about this whole setup is moving the tool carousel the appropriate amount, but that's really just trial and error. For me, the tool changer is one of the main values of the machine, actually.

    Speaking of modbus, that's what I am going to use to control all the peripherals, like coolant. I'm using CNC4PC's modbus with an expansion board, giving me 32 I/O ports for controlling things like relays and the 4400C has a relay board from Opto with upto 12 relays. The oiling system is completely independent and just runs of a power source (not sure what kind).

    As far as the spindle goes, mine is controlled by a +/-10v signal, which any number of boards can generate. It uses an amp (which is currently broken) made by Servo Dynamics and is controlled by a sub-board from Dyna (which will be removed). I'm using a Homman Designs Digispeed XL, but CNC4PC makes a breakout board that can generate that signal as well. Be aware that the spindle has a brake, so you'll have to get that working as well (Homman's board has a provision for that). Of course, you could replace the whole thing with an AC motor and VFD, which is the modern way to drive a spindle, but that will easily add another $1000 onto the conversion, and there is no reason to do so unless the existing motor does not work.

    Another thing is that the 4400C has two problems with limit switches. The first is that they are normally open, which is dangerous (if they fail, the controller will never know, BTDT), the second is that they are single ended, eg. there is a limit switch only on one end. I'm replacing mine with two limit switches on each axis, with one end having soft make/break switches, which can act as home and limit at the same time.

    If you post some pictures of your control cabinet electronics, I might be able to give you some more pointers. If you are careful and plan things out, you can reuse much of the wiring. I've designed a bunch of bridge circuit boards to help with this task, it makes things a lot easier.

    I'm still trying to reverse engineer the e-stop circuit, that's my last barrier to finally starting the conversion. That, and I need to fix my spindle amp... I also designed a whole new console panel to better accommodate Mach3 and had figured out how to use the existing console wiring to provide a backhaul to the controls.

    I'll post some pictures of all this stuff a little later.

    BTW, if you do decide to replace the motor and spindle driver, let me know, I might be interested in them.

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    Do you have access to the electrical specs & encoder details for the HA40CS and the HA80CS? I contacted Granite Devices on another thread concerning the compatibility question.

    Thanks



  9. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonebarnfarm View Post
    Do you have access to the electrical specs & encoder details for the HA40CS and the HA80CS? I contacted Granite Devices on another thread concerning the compatibility question.

    Thanks
    Did you look at the specs I posted upthread? That's what I have as I have never seen a 4400M. If you take a picture of the nameplate, that would be helpful. You can also contact Mitsubishi, they are quite responsive. The encoders are pretty easy to replace if they turn out to be a problem (it's just more money...).

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    BTW, if the 4400M uses drives that take a +/- 10vdc signal, you might be able to re-use them with this board: http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=58

    I would check with Arturo (the owner of CNC4PC) to make sure it will work, but that would be the easiest/cheapest conversion....

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


  11. #23
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    Default +/-10Vdc servo drives vs. +10Vdc spindle drive

    " BTW, if the 4400M uses drives that take a +/- 10vdc signal, you might be able to re-use them with this board: http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=58"

    Reading CNC4PC product description would suggest that this would not work for amp/drives requiring a +/- 10 V DAC command signal. It does look/read to be well suited to convert a step/direction (PWM) signal to run a common 0-10V input to a VFD/VSD for a spindle. It appears the step (PWM) is converted for 0-10 V speed signal and the step (bit) signal is used for CW/CCW rotation signal. Amps/drives using the +/- 10V DAC signal get direction from the sign, and magnitude from the voltage level.

    Maybe someone here might want to volunteer to try out Dynomotion boards to share there experience with the rest of us. Looks like their KMotion card can handle +/- 10V drives. (price wise, I wished the Skyko Pixies would have survived, but obviously the Dynomotion is a full feature motion controller.)


    Mach3 Plugin

    KMotion/KFlop Mach3



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    Quote Originally Posted by 123CNC View Post
    " BTW, if the 4400M
    Maybe someone here might want to volunteer to try out Dynomotion boards to share there experience with the rest of us. Looks like their KMotion card can handle +/- 10V drives. (price wise, I wished the Skyko Pixies would have survived, but obviously the Dynomotion is a full feature motion controller.)


    Mach3 Plugin

    KMotion/KFlop Mach3

    I have a few emails from the KMotion guys. Their cards are well suited to analog drives and they have a plugin for Mach3. My thoughts were that the KMoition would be a great replacement of multiple Pixie controllers until I found their two main limitations. The first is the cards do not support threading/tapping... yet. The second and more importantly they are limited to approximately 500 blocks/sec.
    Possible a third limitation maybe that you cannot use more then one board per PC.

    Trevor



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