Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos

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Thread: Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos

  1. #1
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    Default Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos

    All,

    I thought I would start a new thread (vs the 2400 thread) to post some pictures of the DM4400, mostly of the electronics right now.

    This post will be divided into three sections, each in it's own post:
    • Dyna Mechtronics Overview (this post)
    • 4400 Specific Overview
    • 4400 Electronics Pictures
    Dyna Overview

    All Dyna Myte machines were made in San Jose, California by a company called Dyna Mechtronics. They are still around, their website is at http://www.dynamechtronics.com/ and they still support these old machines as best they can. You can still buy manuals and schematics from them.

    In the late 80's and early 90's, Dyna was a large provider of smaller CNC machines to all sorts of users, ranging from the small desktop machines (the 2400 and the 2800) to their top of the line 4400 small VMCs. The smaller machines were quite popular and sold in their thousands. They also had a line of CNC lathes, the DM3000 and variants.

    One drawback, however, was that Dyna used it's own controls with it's own language (similar to G-code, but not the same). The reason for this was that the machines were designed to be used largely conversationally and the technology of the day was quite limiting (e.g. controller speed in 1987...), so they developed their own series of controllers, SKIP (Single Key Input Programming) which simplified the task of conversational programming. The machines do have RS232 inputs that can be used to upload upto 1000 lines of programming (smaller in the 2400/2800) and can be drip fed using the appropriate software for the PC. When these machines were new, Dyna also sold a sophisticated CAM package as well (no longer available, AFAIK). Using modern CAM tools and appropriate post processors, it is still possible to generate code for the SKIP series of controllers. There are posts available for BobCAM and MasterCAM 9 & 10 and you can used a variety of RS232 utilities to upload the code.

    One interesting thing about Dyna machines is that they were all built in a modular fashion from relatively off-the-shelf parts. Their architecture and electronics are fairly open, with all systems, including the 4400, using step-dir style controllers for the axis motors. All the machines use stepper systems with feedback encoders for position monitoring. The steppers are relatively small and are geared (5 to 1 in the case of the 4400) using either plastic gears or belts.

    Uniquely for such small machines, they used 30-taper spindles on the 2800 and 4000/4400 series, which provides nice, rigid tooling. The bases were all of cast iron, made in Taiwan. The 2800/4000/4400 machines used ballscrews with dovetail ways, while the 2400 had ACME screws with dovetail was. All systems had one-shot lubrication, automated on larger machines. All the systems were designed from the ground up to be bed-style CNC machines and were never derived from mill-drill style designs. The 2400/2800 series also has a relatively high speed spindle (10k rpms), which is an advantage when dealing with small tooling.

    As CNC became more widespread, Dyna changed it's product line. The 2400 was discontinued in the early '90s and controls on the 4000/4400 line switched to more common Mitsubishi G-code (Meldas) in the mid-'90s. AHHA made a conversion kit for most Dyna machines, but it has since gone out of business. Their major value add was a bridge board between existing Dyna electronics and newer control systems, but this is no longer available. A number of people have retrofitted EMC, FlashCut, DeskCNC and Mach3 mostly to 2400/2800 series machines.

    Overall, Dyna machines are great candidates for conversions as they are well built, have electronics which can potentially be re-used and were made in fairly large numbers. They are also small enough for the hobbyist to handle while still providing industrial-style tooling, particularly the 2800.

    In the late '80s, these machines were nothing short of revolutionary, even if they were expensive and quirky. Given all of the mill/drill conversions currently being done, particularly around Sieg products, there is a growing market for small CNC systems pioneered by Dyna 20 years ago.

    Here are some scans of Dyna brochures from back in the day. I only have the 4400 brochures, but you can see the other machines on the last scan.

    Also, some threads that might be of interest:

    Dyna 2400 Conversion (lots of good info, inspired this thread)
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=33770

    Yahoo Dyna Group
    http://groups.yahoo.com/group/Dyna_Mechtronics_Users/

    4400 Specific -
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7651
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=11256

    Post Processor Info for 4400
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7866

    4400 with Mitsubishi Meldas control
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=14443

    2400 Conversion pictures
    http://www.grifftek.com/images/dyna2400remec/

    DM3000
    http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=7502

    Mach3 Forum discussions on Dyna conversions
    http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ind...pic,630.0.html
    http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ind...ic,3557.0.html
    http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ind...ic,5233.0.html
    http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ind...ic,4092.0.html
    http://www.machsupport.com/forum/ind...ic,3134.0.html


    2800 Clone
    http://www.minitechcnc.com/vmc10/vmc...ing_center.htm

    (note: I have better scans - I need to re-upload the images)

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    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0105s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0106s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0107s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0108s-jpg  

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    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0115s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0116s-jpg  
    Last edited by ckm; 01-21-2008 at 04:14 AM. Reason: Added links
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


  2. #2
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    Excellent info. I worked for Dyna from '95-'98. At that time, the Mitsubishi Meldas controls (M3 & M520) were being phased out and replaced with Dyna's PC based control. With the Mits and PC controls, Dyna was aiming for the bigger machine market with the largest mill being 43" x 22" travel 40 taper 15hp 16,000lb VMC.

    The SKIP control was designed by Sandy Walker at Dyna. It was originally intended for the small benchtop machines Dyna sold. Over time, the SKIP control got adapted to bigger more powerful machines like the 4000/4400. The PC3 control that Dyna eventally released was also originally designed by Sandy. Unfortunately, Sandy passed away while the PC3 was under development and before it was released. The PC3 control is, to a great extent, a SKIP control with servos instead of steppers and a PC for the user interface instead of the proprietary console used on the SKIP controls. Because it was PC based, it used conventional G & M codes, had a hard drive and floppy drive, and color LCD screen. Also unfortunately, Dyna started selling the PC3 machines too soon before all the bugs were sorted and alienated their customers and dealers.

    For reference, see attached pictures of my Dyna 4400s with the Mitsubishi M3 controls. These are mechanically the same as the SKIP controlled machines but take advantage of the (at the time) more modern Meldas control with higher rapids (400ipm vs. 100ipm) higher spindle speed (10K rpm vs 7K rpm), rigid tapping, more memory (32KB), and standard G & M codes.

    As far as I know, the ballscrews, spindle, ATC, and basic iron are identical between the Mitsubishi controlled machine and the SKIP controlled machine. This reinforces the statement that the early machines are good candidates for retrofits.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-img_3375-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-img_3407-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-img_3416-jpg  


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    Cool! I've never actually seen one with an enclosure. Could you take a couple of more pictures of the enclosure (particularly how it interfaces with the base column) so that I can build one of those?

    In post #2, I'm going to post pictures of my 'naked' machine. It's probably not possible, but, if you ever get a chance, I'd love to see what your electronics look like. Does the Meldas control run steppers or servos? 400 ipm, huh? I guess that's what I should shoot for as well.

    A little later in this thread, I'm going to post detailed pictures of my current electronics, it'll be interesting to know if those are the same as the ones used on the Meldas machines.

    Thx. for the great pictures, my are not as good, might have to re-shoot them... Esp. now that I've cleaned the thing.

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    Some of the SKIP control 4400s had the same full enclosures as my M3 machines. Other SKIP 4400s had the smaller "table" guards as shown in your brochure scans. I cannot remember if it was an optional enclosure or something that was added to later built machines. I have seen at least three SKIP 4400s here in the Phoenix, AZ area that had the full enclosures and two that had the table guards.

    I will try to take specific pictures of how the enclosure attaches to the base along with the electronics in the back cabinet.

    The M3 uses servos and 5mm pitch ballscrews.



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    Default DM4400 Overview

    The DM4400 is one of the smallest mills you can get with a toolchanger. Although the 2800 is much smaller (it is a benchtop mill), the 4400 is a full size mill, much like a Bridgeport, but significantly stiffer as it is a bed mill, not a knee mill. As stated in a previous post, it was specifically designed for CNC.

    Mechanical Details

    The DM4400 is cast from Meehanite cast iron in six main sections:
    • Base
    • Bed
    • Column
    • Head
    • Y-axis Saddle
    • Table
    Altogether, the mill weighs 4200lbs, and as much as 4600lbs when fully loaded (stock, tooling, coolant). It has hand scraped hardened dovetail ways with Turcite female surfaces. All ways have wipers, way covers, and the axis are driven by pre-loaded ball screws which are also covered. Both dovetails and ball screws are lubricated through a one-shot auto lube system. According to Dyna, the specs are as follows:
    • Table Size: 28.7" x 10"
    • X Travel: 14"
    • Y Travel: 10"
    • Z Travel: 14"
    • Min. Distance from Spindle to Table: 6.5"
    • Maximum table load: 300lbs
    • Floor Area: 65" x 65"
    • Height: 90"
    The spindle is a 30 taper design which can accommodate either CAT30 or BT30 tooling. It has a power drawbar system with a air flush system and a tool changer which holds upto 10 tools.

    Electrical Details

    The DM4400 has a 4.5hp (6hp max) bi-directional spindle motor driven by a Servo Dynamics PWM amplifier (model 3030) capable of 30A @ 160v. It senses motor performance via a tachometer mounted on the spindle motor. In addition, the spindle motor is equipped with a brake. The spindle is belt drive, with two possible positions, 0-2400 RPM and 0-6500 RPM. The spindle motor has levers to loosen it, but it's not really designed to be done often.

    All axis are driven by stepper motors with feedback encoders for closed loop control. The steppers are PMI/Kollmorgen SyncroSteps, their specs are:

    X,Y & Z Axis
    • 200 steps/rev
    • 140 oz. in.
    • 125 watts
    • Parallel: .13 Ohms 4.6 A
    • Series: .52 Ohms 2.3 A
    • Shaft: .375" x 1"
    • Size: NEMA34
    • Overall Length: 3.25"
      (note: motor enclosure has a fan with a 3" dia. hole in enclosure)
    The encoder is an HP HEDS-6310, specs are:
    • Dual channel
    • TTL 1000 count with Index
    • Input 5 VDC
    The stepper drivers are from Dyna and are apparently step/dir style drives (see photos below). They feed 48v to the steppers, which are then geared via a tooth drive 5:1 to the ballscrew.

    The electrical system is feed by a large isolation transformer which requires at least 220v 3-phase. It can by be fed by a Wye/stinger configuration (with a 208v high leg). There are several other transformers in the cabinet, one for the steppers (48v output), one for the electronics (12v & 5v) and a secondary isolation transformer (which feeds the table light, among other things). There are also two timers, one for the e-stop system, another for the auto lube.

    The DM4400 was designed to have a number of auxiliary systems:
    • Probe
    • Coolant
    • Rotary Axis (one or more)
    • Manual Pulse Generator (MPG/pulser)
    The probe was plugged into the a socket in the side of the machine. It was used for tool length measurement as well as stock location.

    The coolant system consists of a separate unit at the front of the machine. It is plugged into an outlet controlled by a relay. There are 6 other outlets to control other systems as needed.

    The rotary axes are plugged into circular-style waterproof connectors also on the side of the cabinet. These necessitated additional cards in the cabinet to drive the rotary axes.

    The MPG (or pulser) was a hand held system for moving axes. It plugged into the bottom of the console.

    Tool Changer

    The tool changer is a pretty complicated affair by hobbyist mill standards. It has bi-directional rotary carousel controlled by a stepper and a swing arm controlled by a DC motor. The controller sees it as two new axes, A and C. I'm not entirely sure which is which yet, but, basically, the tool change sequence is as follows:
    1. Z-axis moves to tool change position (88 mm, apparently)
    2. Carousel stepper moves to the correct (empty) tool slot
    3. DC arm motor fires up and moves until the limit switch at the top of the arm contacts the spindle casting
    4. Power drawbar releases the tool
    5. Z-axis moves up to release the tool
    6. Carousel moves to the new tool
    7. Z-axis moves down onto tool
    8. Drawbar clamps tool
    9. DC arm motor reverses until hall sensor on column trips
    All these movements are controlled by boards in the cabinet. Two of the boards handle the carousel stepper and limit switches, while another board turns and reverses the DC motor (at least, that's what I think).

    Controller

    The controller is a proprietary system which has the following features:
    • Tool compensation
    • Backlash compensation
    • Pitch error compensation
    • 3-axis circular interpolation
    • Programmable spindle
    • Rigid taping
    • Polar and Cartesian coordinates
    As stated above, it was designed at a time when computing systems were rather slow, so it's rather primitive. It also uses it's own language, not G-code. While it has two RS232 ports, there are only 999 lines of memory, so one would have to drip feed it for anything larger. One interesting feature was that the controller can be removed from the console for programming at your desk.

    Performance

    So what can it do? Well, according to Dyna, these were the machine specs when new:

    Rapid traverse: 100 ipm
    Cutting feed rate: 80 ipm max
    Resolution: 0.0001"
    Position accuracy: 0.0005" total
    Position repeatability: +/- 0.00015"
    Boring roundness: 0.0002"
    Boring cylindricity: 0.0004"/4" dia
    Manual jog: 0.0005" (0.01mm)

    That's about it. More in the brochures from the first post. A bunch of pictures below. Mouse over for what it is. Next up, how to fix various broken things on your DM4400 (tracing and fixing wiring, fixing your spindle amp and fixing your hall sensor, plus whatever else I find is broken...), followed by retrofitting the DM4400 with Mach3.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-stepper-motor-yx-axis-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-stepper-motor2-yx-axis-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-y-axis-encoder-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-stepper-driver-top-s-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-stepper-driver-heatsink-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-stepper-driver-connector-side-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-stepper-driver-back-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-dc-transformers-12v-5v-48v-s-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-isolation-transformer-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-secondary-isolation-transformer-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-power-distribution-ac-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-e-stop-start-timer-s-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-tool-changer-control-auto-lube-timer-s   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-spindle-amp-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-spindle-speed-controller-cabinet-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-spindle-speed-controller-front-s-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-spindle-speed-controller-back-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-apu-cabinet-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-apu-board-signal-distribution-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-overview-cabinet-spindle-driver-missing-s-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-relay-board-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-tool-changer-power-distribution-s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-stepper-driver-card-rack-3-axis-left   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-dm4400-skip-control-table-guards-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-dm4400-skip-control-table-guards-2-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-dm4400-transformer-tx44k4k-jpg  
    Last edited by ckm; 01-22-2008 at 03:33 AM. Reason: Wrong weight
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by Caprirs View Post
    The M3 uses servos and 5mm pitch ballscrews.
    You wouldn't happen to know what the specs on those servos would be? I'm particularly interested in the speed and torque that were used. This would be useful in narrowing which servos I might choose for the retrofit.

    Right now, I'm looking at Keling's NEMA 34 series (http://www.kelinginc.net/ServoMotor.html), but they come in 600, 850 and 1125 oz.in. versions. I think the 600 oz.in. may be enough (esp. with 5:1 gearing), but I'd like to know what the factory used to get 400 ipm

    I think I may be able to mount them straight onto the original mounting structure by boring out the coupling on the original motor and leaving of the cover...

    Thx.

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


  7. #7
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    My M3 machines have Mitsubishi HA40CS servos on the X & Y and HA80CS on the Z. No idea on the specs but someone at Mitsubishi should be able to help. I believe the HA80CS on the Z is a "high torque" servo to deal with the Z's higher mass of head & counterweight.



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    Default 4400M with Mitsubishi Meldas control and servo motor spec

    Caprirs: quick question. Did your machines come those colors or where they painted? And if they were painted, how and with what?

    BTW, did find the HA40CS here:

    http://www.meau.com/eprise/main/sites/public/SERVICE_AND_SUPPORT/TSS_Parts_Catalog/-Part_Detail?matnrid={465F47AB-3423-48AF-9B80-7AB7C3EAE656}

    and the HA80CS here:

    http://www.meau.com/eprise/main/sites/public/SERVICE_AND_SUPPORT/TSS_Parts_Catalog/-Part_Detail?matnrid={DBEFE200-0342-4ACB-BC33-DA797A7DE778}

    The specs of these motors are as follows:

    HA40CS
    Rated Torque
    30.0 kg/cm at stall (2687 oz.in.)
    27.2 kg/cm at 1000 RPM
    24.4 kg/cm at 2000 RPM
    Max. RPM 2000
    Weight 8 kg

    HA80CS
    Rated Torque
    60.0 kg/cm at stall (5375 oz.in.)
    54.4 kg/cm at 1000 RPM
    48.7 kg/cm at 2000 RPM
    Max. RPM 2000
    Weight 12kg

    Attached is the spec PDF.

    Damn, those are some powerful motors. Much, much more than the 140 oz. in. steppers on the SKIP-based 4400.

    As a side note, I removed the Z-axis stepper today to have a good look at it. After I had taken it off, I freaked out as I suddenly realized that the head was now totally unsupported and I had just taken off the stepper... I remembered hearing that ball screws could be back driven and feared the head would coming crashing down. After running around the shop looking for appropriate wood, I secured the head and tried to see if it would move. Nothing, nothing at all, it would not budge. I didn't push hard, not wanting to tempt fate....

    This little adventure, however, leads me to believe that a Z-axis brake is perhaps not necessary. I had been doing some research into this, but it seems that the combination of dovetail ways and a counterweight may be enough to hold up the head. For safety sake, I probably really should have a brake, it's just that I haven't found a suitable solution yet.

    The fact that the factory servo comes without a brake also suggests this is an acceptable solution....

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-servo-motor-specs-pdf  
    Last edited by ckm; 01-22-2008 at 12:08 PM. Reason: Added servo motor spec
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


  9. #9
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    Default Updated scans

    [since I can't edit a post that's only 3 days old, here's a new post with new scans]

    Updated brochure scans

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0105s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0106s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0107s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0108s-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0109s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0110s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0113s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0114s-jpg  

    Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0115s-jpg   Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos-scan0116s-jpg  
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    I'm now wondering if the factory servos on the 4400M are actually geared differently than the steppers on the older 4400C.

    If I look at DC servos commonly available and in the same weight range as the AC units from Mitsubishi, they are around 600 and 1100 oz.in. respectively. Geared 5:1, they would be roughly the same power as the AC servos on the 4400M....

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


  11. #11
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    No gears on the Mits machines. Direct coupled to the ballscrews.

    The head likely will not drop with the 5mm pitch ballscrew. On machines with a 10mm pitch ballscrew, the heads can creep down when the power is switched off which generally indicates the gibs need to be snugged up. There is typically enough friction in the dovetail (when properly adjusted) to prevent the head from dropping so there is no servo brake on the Z axis of my machines.

    Those colors on my machines are the ones used on all Dyna Mitsubishi machines: 4400, 4500, 4800, 3300 (lathe). There are numerous layers of primers underneath. As the coolant and chips have taken their toll over the years, there are areas where huge chunks of paint are flaking off.



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    Is the 4400/4000 a vertical knee mill or vertical bed mill. Just a little confused by location of thread. Nice pics though.



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    It's a bed mill, see the brochures above. Pict no2 clearly shows this. I posted here as there are other Dyna threads here and I was not sure where else it would go since all Dyna's are bed mills...

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    I'm ckm's buddy at "the shop"....it's a KILLER machine, just the fact of getting a fun thing to get'it going will be so much fun. ckm is a total brainniac....so doing the cnc upgrades will be great.....peace!!!!



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    Default Spindle drive fixes and retrofit boards...

    Well, I had been hoping to post that my Servo Dynamics SD-3030 spindle drive was fixed, but it's not quite yet. I repaired a bunch of burned out wiring in the power supply. It turns out that the OEM put wire ties every 1/2 inch on all the wires. Great, but over what I guess are power resistors, the ties were so tight that when the wire insulation got brittle due to the heat, the ties just wore through.

    The net effect of this was that the fan stopped working, causing further wiring failure. I replaced everything with automotive grade wiring, which solved some of the spindle problems (e.g. now the spindle turns on initialization). However, I was still having an error during initialization. The spindle would spin up, then the drive would error out with an over-voltage error. Careful examination of the 6 rectifier diodes revealed one with clear burn marks. It was replaced.

    I thought this would be the end of it, but the drive still errors out at initialization with the same behavior (spins up for 10 seconds, then errors with overvoltage). Resetting the drive produces a large buzzing sound from what appears to be the power supply. I suspect that more of the rectifier diodes are bad, but am not sure. The DC drive voltage reads 80v and I haven't had time to check the bus voltage coming from the power supply yet.

    The manual stats that the error led is as follows:

    Code:
    Voltage - This LED will give an indication for these conditions:
    
    1) Bus voltage has exceeded 195 VDC, this condition can exist if:
        a) The shunt regulator fuses are blown
        b) A regulator is required to handle regenerative motor 
            energy, while decelerating, due to excessively high 
            inertia.
    
    2) The sum of the +/- 15 Volt Bias supply is less than 28 Volts 
        DC.  This condition can exist if a line transient causes 
        the bias supply to dip momentarily or the bias supply has 
        failed.  Check bias supply fuse.
    I checked the shut regulator fuses, and they are OK, and there is a regulator. Also, since the noise on reset exists at dead stop, it would seem that the problem is elsewhere.... I also checked the bias supply fuse and the voltage sum. Both seem OK.

    The power supply seems pretty simple. It's basically six rectifier diodes that rectify the incoming 3-phase AC into DC, then pass it to a large filter capacitor. There is also circuitry for shunt regulator which feeds three large resistors. I don't know enough about power drives to understand the whole thing, but it seems that the only two places that could generate overvoltage would be either the cap or the rectifier diodes. I suppose the switching MOSFETs on the shunt regulator could also be bad, but this would not explain the buzzing on reset.... Or it could be wired to the wrong ends on the transformer (hmmm, should check that first...). My next step is to test the power supply more thoroughly, starting with the rest of the diodes and the capacitor.

    The other possibility is the power output stage of the amp, which is a bunch of MOSFETs driven in PWM fashion at 2Khz. One interesting thing was that when I disconnected the control and tach inputs, then started the machine, the drive went into run-away mode, something I did not expect. I thought that enable and signal were necessary at least for the thing to run. This may or may not indicate a problem with the amp itself. I'm going to take the heatsink off the MOSFETs to see if I can divine anything from their looks...

    Regardless, I've been trolling ebay and the 'net to find a reasonably cheap replacement. If anyone knows of a 150-180v 6HP (~30-40A) DC motor controller with integrated power supply for a reasonable price, please tell me. I do have an AMC controller of the right size coming, but no power supply... In the meantime, I'm continuing to troubleshoot the amp as best I can. I have an o-scope and various other electronics testing tools, as well as the manual for the amp, but I don't know an enormous amount about these things, so it's slow going.

    In other news, I designed and had made some breakout boards to convert the existing control system to Mach3. They arrived today. I now have most everything I need for a conversion, so I'm going to start on that next week.

    If anyone has ever worked on a Servo Dynamics drive and has some pointers, I'd be grateful if you'd be willing to share your wisdom.

    Thx.

    Chris.

    Last edited by ckm; 02-07-2008 at 02:53 AM. Reason: speling mistacs
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    I have a 4400M and I really like what I read about the retrofitting. But, just so I understand, there is no way to retro with the AC servo drives....right?



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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonebarnfarm View Post
    I have a 4400M and I really like what I read about the retrofitting. But, just so I understand, there is no way to retro with the AC servo drives....right?
    I don't know for sure, having never seen a 4400M. Theoretically, it is possible, but you have to figure out what signal the controller sends to the amplifier/servo drive. If it's a step/dir style signal, that's not that hard to retrofit. If it's a +/-10v signal (likely), then it's harder, particularly since the one place that was selling step/dir to +/-10v converters has stopped doing so. There may be others, but I don't know who they are.... Most of the upgrade paths people discuss on CNCzone involve controllers that speak step/dir rather than +/-10v and it seems that industry is moving towards step/dir even for servos, so you need amplifiers/drives that speak step/dir.

    In extremis, you could replace the servo drives all together with drives from Granite Devices (http://www.granitedevices.fi/ about $250 ea) that should drive your AC motors, but that would push up the cost a bit.

    It's definitely doable, but you may have to replace way more parts that in a 4400C which uses step/dir.

    HTH,

    Chris.

    Last edited by ckm; 02-19-2008 at 02:34 PM. Reason: Granite drives more expensive than I thought...
    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    Do you know of anyone who has done this with the Granite Devices drives?

    I was thinking of going with Mach3. All I would need is 3 new drives from Granite Devices and a breakout board. I still should be able to use the power supply from the mill itself as well as all the other existing basic controls. (Limit switches, coolent pumping system, oiling system, for example). I would strip out the tool changer. I think I would also have to replace the spindle motor and control unless there is some way to replace the just the control with something that would work with the motor. Maybe I could get the whole thing done for $1000 to $1500??



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    Quote Originally Posted by Stonebarnfarm View Post
    Do you know of anyone who has done this with the Granite Devices drives?

    I was thinking of going with Mach3. All I would need is 3 new drives from Granite Devices and a breakout board. I still should be able to use the power supply from the mill itself as well as all the other existing basic controls. (Limit switches, coolent pumping system, oiling system, for example). I would strip out the tool changer. I think I would also have to replace the spindle motor and control unless there is some way to replace the just the control with something that would work with the motor. Maybe I could get the whole thing done for $1000 to $1500??
    I don't know anyone that has used the Granite Devices drives, sorry. But the fact that it was basically developed on CNCzone is encouraging. You might be able to get them to send you a single unit to see if it will work with your motors.

    I would leave the tool changer in. By using the new 'brains' feature of Mach3 and a modbus controller, you can get it working. If it's like mine, it's just a motor with two switches controlling the swing and a stepper rotating the tools (it's treated as the A-axis and has a step/dir interface). There is a hall sensor under the forward pulley, on the right side of the mill, it tells the control what position the spindle is in and acts as a tach as well. The only really complicated thing about this whole setup is moving the tool carousel the appropriate amount, but that's really just trial and error. For me, the tool changer is one of the main values of the machine, actually.

    Speaking of modbus, that's what I am going to use to control all the peripherals, like coolant. I'm using CNC4PC's modbus with an expansion board, giving me 32 I/O ports for controlling things like relays and the 4400C has a relay board from Opto with upto 12 relays. The oiling system is completely independent and just runs of a power source (not sure what kind).

    As far as the spindle goes, mine is controlled by a +/-10v signal, which any number of boards can generate. It uses an amp (which is currently broken) made by Servo Dynamics and is controlled by a sub-board from Dyna (which will be removed). I'm using a Homman Designs Digispeed XL, but CNC4PC makes a breakout board that can generate that signal as well. Be aware that the spindle has a brake, so you'll have to get that working as well (Homman's board has a provision for that). Of course, you could replace the whole thing with an AC motor and VFD, which is the modern way to drive a spindle, but that will easily add another $1000 onto the conversion, and there is no reason to do so unless the existing motor does not work.

    Another thing is that the 4400C has two problems with limit switches. The first is that they are normally open, which is dangerous (if they fail, the controller will never know, BTDT), the second is that they are single ended, eg. there is a limit switch only on one end. I'm replacing mine with two limit switches on each axis, with one end having soft make/break switches, which can act as home and limit at the same time.

    If you post some pictures of your control cabinet electronics, I might be able to give you some more pointers. If you are careful and plan things out, you can reuse much of the wiring. I've designed a bunch of bridge circuit boards to help with this task, it makes things a lot easier.

    I'm still trying to reverse engineer the e-stop circuit, that's my last barrier to finally starting the conversion. That, and I need to fix my spindle amp... I also designed a whole new console panel to better accommodate Mach3 and had figured out how to use the existing console wiring to provide a backhaul to the controls.

    I'll post some pictures of all this stuff a little later.

    BTW, if you do decide to replace the motor and spindle driver, let me know, I might be interested in them.

    Chris.

    List of parts sources for CNC builders - http://www.CNCsources.net
    Dyna Mechtronics 4400C Conversion - CNC bed mill w/toolchanger to Mach3 conversion - http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50787


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    Do you have access to the electrical specs & encoder details for the HA40CS and the HA80CS? I contacted Granite Devices on another thread concerning the compatibility question.

    Thanks



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