Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos

[123CNC]

CKM (Chris)

You may want to check with Quality Industrial Electronics to get an estimate on repairs vs. replacement. Check their site out http://www.qie.com/aboutus.html

Woodturn and friend

If you and CKM are talking about the same amp/drive, look upstream at CKM's post with manual info. Looks as though +15 is at pin 10 and -15 at pin 12 (~50mA). I'm guessing you just want to use a potentiometer to local/manual control the spindle.

[b5n7i2o5]

I don't think you are understanding what I am getting at. I know how to control the spindle I know what pins etc. I will be using either a computer or my own micrprocessor designed circuit to control that aspect of spindle rotation cw/ccw and speed. What I m searching for is what board the dyna 4400 had that delivered the necessary -15v and +15v supply voltages for the Servo Dynamics drive. Without this board I will have to build an opamp (inverting) power supply to give me the negative voltage that I need also Servo dynamics said they wanted at 2 amp supply with on these 2 inputs. So if I knew what board this was and if we still had it I was hoping to save time and effort by possibly being able to reuse it. So does anybody know what board supplies this -15v and +15v power to the drive?

[ckm]

I don't think you are understanding what I am getting at. I know how to control the spindle I know what pins etc. I will be using either a computer or my own micrprocessor designed circuit to control that aspect of spindle rotation cw/ccw and speed. What I m searching for is what board the dyna 4400 had that delivered the necessary -15v and +15v supply voltages for the Servo Dynamics drive. Without this board I will have to build an opamp (inverting) power supply to give me the negative voltage that I need also Servo dynamics said they wanted at 2 amp supply with on these 2 inputs. So if I knew what board this was and if we still had it I was hoping to save time and effort by possibly being able to reuse it. So does anybody know what board supplies this -15v and +15v power to the drive?

123CNC is right. The SD 3060 provides it's own 15v power supply. It's pins 10-12 of connector J1. See the diagrams I posted in post #37, they are scans of the SD3060 factory manual. If you don't have +/- 15v at those pins, then the internal 15v power supply is bad. If you take the SD3060's cover off and look behind the large circuit board, you will see, from left to right (with the terminal strip at the left) the 15v PS, a large capacitor, the rectifier diodes and regen circuit. I actually have pictures of all this, just not right here. I'll try to post them later tonight.

Also, I don't think you actually need 15v, 10v might do. You don't really need to build your own board, just get a breakout board that has a 0-10v signal out, and use relays to flop voltage if you need a reversing spindle. Unless you like making work for yourself. Also you should really check the 2400 build thread I linked to, they have reverse engineered some pinouts from an AHHA....

@123CNC, thanks for the repair recommendation. I'm actually re-building the rectifier circuit with all new components, hopefully that will do the trick.

Chris.

[ckm]

Woodturn, Just so I am clear, Does your machine have the HA40CS motors on the X and Y axis with the HA80CS on the Z?

DSE

Those two motors are AC servos, only used on the 4400M. Woodturn's machine is a 4400C and came with steppers, whose specs I posted upthread (there is also a picture of them...).

In general, AC servos are much, much more powerful than either steppers or DC servos. They also require much more complicated drives, but it's what is used in modern machines.

HTH,

Chris.

[b5n7i2o5]

Hey ckm, I talked to Victor at servo dynamics I guess he is head servo drive guy for the sd3060. Anyway he told me from the get go you need to apply external -/+ 15v to the drive or it wouldn't work and he also said it would need to be 2 amps or more. So I thought this was weird myself in the beginning since the dyna 4400 schematics we have never noted an actual external input to those pins. So I will measure these pins tomorrow and check this out as per your post. So I would imagine if pin 10 and 12 +15v and -15v I could use them for the positive and negative signal for the signal input for the amp, is this correct? The strange thing is that I have connected an external power supply to those pins -15v +15v and the drive operated correctly. So I will investigate for suggestions.

[ckm]

Hey ckm, I talked to Victor at servo dynamics I guess he is head servo drive guy for the sd3060. Anyway he told me from the get go you need to apply external -/+ 15v to the drive or it wouldn't work and he also said it would need to be 2 amps or more. So I thought this was weird myself in the beginning since the dyna 4400 schematics we have never noted an actual external input to those pins. So I will measure these pins tomorrow and check this out as per your post. So I would imagine if pin 10 and 12 +15v and -15v I could use them for the positive and negative signal for the signal input for the amp, is this correct? The strange thing is that I have connected an external power supply to those pins -15v +15v and the drive operated correctly. So I will investigate for suggestions.

Well, I have the manual in front of me, and it says nothing about external 15vdc power, let alone 2amps. That seems like a lot, esp. since the industry standard for this type of control is +/- 10vdc and in the 200 milliamp range... The manual states the following for signal input:

Signal Input Voltages 
               +/- 10 Volts (typ)
               +/- 15 Volts (max)

That would suggest that 10vdc is just fine, which makes sense. Also, the original wiring in the cabinet is very small, about 16 gauge, which would seem to rule out a 15vdc, 2A requirement.

Besides, these:



are the only DC power supplies in the cabinet (+/-12vdc / +/- 5vdc, 48vdc [steppers], respectively), and this:



is the spindle controller. AFAIK, there is no linear regulator or other power management circuit on it. Also, the 15vdc outputs on the SD3060 are not used in the Dyna factory configuration, suggesting the control board is driving the SD3060 is actually being driven at 12vdc.

You should really look at this post for more pictures of a stock 4400C's wiring, control boards and power supplies. That's where those images come from....

P.S. If you ever design a circuit to drive the spindle, you should post the schematics/PCBs....

HTH,

Chris.

[b5n7i2o5]

Hey Chris thanks for the pics and info. I have talked with Victor many times at servo dynamics and I have been questioning this +/- 15v external input scenario but he swears you have to have it and I think that it is crazy. The drive would not work untill I did hook it with an external +/- 15v, but then again there could be something wrong with our drive also. I believe what you guys are telling me I will be at the college tomorrow to check it out. I just have a hard time believing that the amp would need external power to make it operate, you would assume that it was designed into the drive from the beginning which I believe it was and for how expensive these drives are new. So I will check it out tomorrow and see what we come up with.
Thanks again.

[ckm]

Hey Chris thanks for the pics and info. I have talked with Victor many times at servo dynamics and I have been questioning this +/- 15v external input scenario but he swears you have to have it and I think that it is crazy. The drive would not work untill I did hook it with an external +/- 15v, but then again there could be something wrong with our drive also. I believe what you guys are telling me I will be at the college tomorrow to check it out. I just have a hard time believing that the amp would need external power to make it operate, you would assume that it was designed into the drive from the beginning which I believe it was and for how expensive these drives are new. So I will check it out tomorrow and see what we come up with.
Thanks again.

Unfortunately, facts contradict SD tech support. Both the original factory manual (which is pretty clear about input signals...) and the Dyna factory setup indicate that less than 15vdc is needed to drive the SD. There isn't a source of 15vdc in the whole power cabinet. Plus, the standard back then was driving servos at 10vdc.

I would be skeptical of someone at SD as well. This drive was made 20 years ago and there probably aren't many people at SD that were around when it was in production. Never mind the fact that SD tech support has called at least a couple of other SD3060's that I know of un-repairable (any piece of electronics is repairable....) and then gone on suggest a replacement that was designed for an AC servo (not a DC servo like our spindle ... duh), so I don't have much confidence in their knowledge of any of this....

You can always call Dyna and find out what they say. They've always been very responsive to tech support inquiries.

Chris.

[b5n7i2o5]

I agree about your opinion on how accurate of recollection that SD company has. Victor who I talked to you was suppose to have been employed there a while ago when that drive was still somewhat main stream, but I still have my doubts. I agree with you, any thing electronically can be fixed. Anyone who tells you it can not are usually not honest.

[woodturn]

right on b5n7i2o5 you tell em. Lets get this thing figured out!!!

[ckm]

Stonebarnfarm did more research on the motors and encoders for the 4400M (the one with the Mitsubishi control) and posted it on this thread about Granite Devices servo drives.

From this post:

Here is what I can find from Mitsubshi:

Motor HA40CS 3Phase
Input in 100% (kVA) 1.0
Input in 100% at 170V 3.4

Motor HA80CS 3 Phase
Input in 100% (kVA) 1.6
Input in 100% at 170V 5.4

Maintain a voltage of 170V to 242V at servo amp.

I also found the wiring but only what 3 wires go to the motor windings, 2 go to thermo and 1 to earth.

And about the encoders, from this post:

They are OSE5KN -6-12-108
Mitsubshi reports:

OSE - Optical type shaft encoder
5K - 5000 P/R
N - Special symbol
6 - output channels
12 - Shaft diameter
108 - Flange diameter

Just trying to keep all this info in one place so people can find it when the come looking....

Chris.

[woodturn]

So my friends were back at the 4400 at the Jr. college last Thursday and found that there is in fact a -+ 15 power supply hooked in the spindle drive. Cool. Now there is some relay issue that he tried to explain to me about hooking into Mach, at the time it made sense but I could not repeat it now if I tried. I'll talk to him on Tuesday and see what is what. I wanted to say thanks to all of you that helped us get over this little stumbling block.


Thanks

[ckm]

Now there is some relay issue that he tried to explain to me about hooking into Mach, at the time it made sense but I could not repeat it now if I tried. I'll talk to him on Tuesday and see what is what. I wanted to say thanks to all of you that helped us get over this little stumbling block.

Well, if it has to do with the spindle, then a relay would normally be used to reverse directions. HOWEVER, the spindle driver on the 4400 is NOT a normal spindle driver (in the Mach sense), it's actually a servo driver, so the spindle is a giant servo.... This is great because you get much more control over the operation of the spindle (for things like rigid tapping), but it sucks because Mach expects spindles to have one speed signal and two relays (one for direction, the other for the brake...).

Instead the SD servo drive takes a +/- 10v signal, where -10v is full speed one direction and +10v is full speed the opposite direction.... 0v is stopped... Which would be OK, since you might be able to treat the spindle as just another axis, except for the fact that Skyko has stopped making step-dir to +/-10v converters (and, AFAIK, they were the only source).

So, if your community college buddy wants a good class project, a step-dir to +/-10v converter would be a good start, with the source and pcb's made available on CNCzone.... ;-)

There is an additional complication related to the tool changer vs spindle, but that's another post...

PS - It would be awesome if you all could document your conversion with pics and other details...

Edit: actually, it looks like Rutex has a couple of step/dir to +/-10v converters, the R991H or the R2040, although they are expensive at $100 ea.

Chris.

[ckm]

Just found another thread related to the Dyna 4400 series:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=23562

[N4NV]

I have Servo Dynamics 1525 drives on my big mill (driven by Pixies). They take +-15V input for the board as well as 30 to 100VDC for the drive portion. The signal input is +-10V. I use a Condor GMP55E power supply for the SD input. The GMP55E has +-15V, +5V and +24V. The 15V outputs are rated 1A (the SD needs 350 mA), the 5V output is 6A and the 24V is 1.5A. This power supply should have everything you need.

Vince

[ckm]

I have Servo Dynamics 1525 drives on my big mill (driven by Pixies). They take +-15V input for the board as well as 30 to 100VDC for the drive portion. The signal input is +-10V. I use a Condor GMP55E power supply for the SD input. The GMP55E has +-15V, +5V and +24V. The 15V outputs are rated 1A (the SD needs 350 mA), the 5V output is 6A and the 24V is 1.5A. This power supply should have everything you need.

Thanks Vince. The setup on the Dyna is that the SD drive is mounted in a chassis which has 180vdc and 15vdc power supplies integrated. But if the SD power supply is fried, the GMP55E would be a good option, at least for the 15V part.

Just out of curiosity, what do you use as a 100VDC power supply?

Thx.

Chris.

[N4NV]

Just out of curiosity, what do you use as a 100VDC power supply?
Thx.
Chris.

The 100VDC is part of the SD installation. In the picture you can see the three cards to the lower left and under them a capacitor. I think SD called this the mother board and the three axis cards plug into it. The mother board has the 100VDC power supply. The SD1526 drives that SD now makes are stand alone with the DC power supply in each drive.

Vince

[ckm]

Ah, the pic explains a lot. Here is a picture of a 'naked' SD3060 chassis like the one in the 4400.

From the left are the 15vdc PS, and then the motor power supply capacitor. Missing is are the diode rectifiers and regen circuit, as I have these removed for repairs.

The driver itself fits in front of this and the whole thing is enclosed.

Chris

[ckm]

All,

There is a 4400C for sale in GA, it looks in OK shape from the pictures:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll...m=360032260222

The lot is for a bunch of CNC machines. If anyone wins it and wants to part with the DM3000 lathe, I'd be interested...

Thx.

Chris.

[ckm]

Well, it's been a while since I posted. Work has been sucking up most of my time, and it's about to increase...

Never the less, I've managed to make some progress on the 4400. First a teaser shot:



Yeah! All painted. What a huge pain in the ass that was. This much of a pain, actually:



Here are some more shots of the final machine and some other of it with the coolant tray removed.



I started painting while waiting for parts to come in, then it turned into a huge project and sidetracked the project. I did finally get my custom boards in a couple of weeks ago, I'll have some pictures of them shortly

These boards do three things:

1. Breakout the existing wiring between the console and the cabinet
2. Breakout the existing stepper drive connections
3. Turn the screw terminals on the BoB into IDC headers

These were made by ExpressPCB, using their prototyping service. I actually put several boards on the same PCB, then cut them out. The first ones were cut on a vertical bandsaw, which works OK, but is inaccurate and dangerous. After some research, I found that people were recommending a paper cutter (the guillotine type). Well, we have even better than that in our shop, with a large number of sheet metal slicing tools. A bench mounted throatless shear works wonders on PCBs and the cuts are really straight.

I'll more pictures of the finished setup in the next few days. I've crimped up all the IDC cross connects and installed the controller software, so I'm pretty close to firing everything up.

Finally, I got a replacement for the Servo Dynamics spindle drive.



This is a Minarik DC driver and it's about 1/5th of the size of the Servo Dynamics unit. It's missing some features like built-in reversing, but it's definitely 20 years newer technology....

Chris.