Dyna Mechtronics 4400 (DM4400, dyna myte) reference + brochures & photos

[quote=Stonebarnfarm;413047]Do you have access to the electrical specs & encoder details for the HA40CS and the HA80CS? I contacted Granite Devices on another thread concerning the compatibility question.

Thanks[/quote]

Did you look at the specs I posted upthread? That's what I have as I have never seen a 4400M. If you take a picture of the nameplate, that would be helpful. You can also contact Mitsubishi, they are quite responsive. The encoders are pretty easy to replace if they turn out to be a problem (it's just more money...).

Chris.

BTW, if the 4400M uses drives that take a +/- 10vdc signal, you might be able to re-use them with this board: [url]http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58[/url]

I would check with Arturo (the owner of CNC4PC) to make sure it will work, but that would be the easiest/cheapest conversion....

Chris.

" BTW, if the 4400M uses drives that take a +/- 10vdc signal, you might be able to re-use them with this board: [URL="http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/product_info.php?cPath=25&products_id=58"]http://www.cnc4pc.com/Store/osc/prod...products_id=58[/URL]"

Reading CNC4PC product description would suggest that this would not work for amp/drives requiring a +/- 10 V DAC command signal. It does look/read to be well suited to convert a step/direction (PWM) signal to run a common 0-10V input to a VFD/VSD for a spindle. It appears the step (PWM) is converted for 0-10 V speed signal and the step (bit) signal is used for CW/CCW rotation signal. Amps/drives using the +/- 10V DAC signal get direction from the sign, and magnitude from the voltage level.

Maybe someone here might want to volunteer to try out Dynomotion boards to share there experience with the rest of us. Looks like their KMotion card can handle +/- 10V drives. (price wise, I wished the Skyko Pixies would have survived, but obviously the Dynomotion is a full feature motion controller.)


[B][I][FONT=Arial][SIZE=6]Mach3 Plugin[/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B] [B][I][FONT=Arial][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]
[IMG]http://www.dynomotion.com/Help/Mach3Plugin/Mach3PlusKFlop.PNG[/IMG]
[B][I][FONT=Arial][SIZE=4] KMotion/KFlop Mach3[/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]

[quote=123CNC;413800]" BTW, if the 4400M
Maybe someone here might want to volunteer to try out Dynomotion boards to share there experience with the rest of us. Looks like their KMotion card can handle +/- 10V drives. (price wise, I wished the Skyko Pixies would have survived, but obviously the Dynomotion is a full feature motion controller.)


[B][I][FONT=Arial][SIZE=6]Mach3 Plugin[/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B] [B][I][FONT=Arial][SIZE=4] [/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B]
[IMG]http://www.dynomotion.com/Help/Mach3Plugin/Mach3PlusKFlop.PNG[/IMG]
[B][I][FONT=Arial][SIZE=4] KMotion/KFlop Mach3[/SIZE][/FONT][/I][/B][/quote]


I have a few emails from the KMotion guys. Their cards are well suited to analog drives and they have a plugin for Mach3. My thoughts were that the KMoition would be a great replacement of multiple Pixie controllers until I found their two main limitations. The first is the cards do not support threading/tapping... yet. The second and more importantly they are limited to approximately 500 blocks/sec.
Possible a third limitation maybe that you cannot use more then one board per PC.

Trevor

[I] "The second and more importantly they are limited to approximately 500 blocks/sec."[/I]

By "they" are you referring to both the kmotion board and the newer kflop, or just the kmotion board?

Just wanted to add that I spoke with the fellow regarding the dynomotion boards and I think there may have been a misunderstanding somewhere because according to him they are [B]not [/B]limited to 500 blocks/sec in any way.

I agreed to do some testing on the Kflop board w/ both my lathe and mill so I will try to post results once I get rolling on them. I'll be using steppers on the lathe and brushed servos w/ the SnapAmp on the mill.

Hey fellas

I have been working with this guy at the local Jr. college trying to get a 4400 running. So far we tied Mach into the existing AHHA drives. So the x y and Z are moving just fine through Mach. Our recent stumbling block has been trying to get Mach to drive to spindle. This is what we've done.

To unlock the brake on the spindle we cut the end off an extension cord and wired to the harness on top of the motor, and plugged it in...it seemed to unlock the brake just fine.

To get the spindle to turn we hooked up a -15/+15 VDC adjustable power supply, from the old electronics lab, to the servo dynamics pwm, and seemed to have some luck there. We had the spindle moving a different speeds according to the voltage that we supplied to it. We had a volt meter hooked to it, and I don't think we went over 10VDC.

But what we really want is a way to control the spindle through the parallel port from Mach.

Is this the same question you are all dealing with, or I am just opening a new can o' worms

thanks

woodturn,

sounds as your 4400 has already undergone some changes from stock, AHHA drives. Look at CKM post #5 for pics of the DYNA proprietary drives, later in their lifespan they were fitted with Mitsubishi Meldas control hardware.

If you do still have the the Dyna spindle drive, you might read CKM's experience upthread.

If you have had good luck with your experiment of sending a standard 0-10 Vdc setpoint signal to the drive, the Mach end should be no problem. CNC4PC sales a couple hardware options, including a step/dir converter to 0-10 Vdc (as was mentioned and linked upthread). I believe Homann Designs makes some converters as well, and am certain others too.

123cnc,

I am NOT the expert on this project, but I was told by someone who knows a fair deal about this stuff that those cards will not work because we need a -10VDC to a +10Vdc power supply so the spindle will go CW and CCW, and I think those cards only only provide the spindle with a +10VDC which would make them go CW. Let me know if I am wrong.

I am fairly sure that our spindle drive is the original, but I will check. I do know that it is a servo dynamic drive.

Thanks and good luck

Sounds like you do still have the Dyna supplied Servo Dynamics spindle control, as afore mentioned by CKM. While AHHA was still around, there were quite a few 4400M users who went that route, as has been mentioned in other threads on this forum. Your experiment mentioned success with 0-10 V, I now read this as in one direction only. If you need the full +/- 15 V, you'll have to keep looking. If you could work with +/- 10V, you could still use one of the mentioned converters and a pair of relays to swap the +/- output for direction control. Although not eloquent, should work. Your dir output from Mach could fire the right relay.

123cnc,

So with this pwm should you run + or - 15VDC or + or - 10VDC?

With the above mentioned card, do you feed it a 12VDC signal, then it spits out whatever voltage you need to run the spindle a given speed, limited to 10VDC?

Also

Withe this card can you run the spindle CW and CCW?

Thanks

The converters that take step/dir to send 0-10V control signal (CV) are designed for the more common AC VFD/VSDs that can use their own 10Vdc source across a potentiometer or an external 0-10 Vdc analog command. Typically the direction is just a pair of fwd/rev contacts to the drives common.

Since your application, the Servo Dynamics DC controller, is expecting a sign-magnitude signal +/-, I was suggesting making the 0 to +10Vdc work as +/- 10 by switching the output sign via post-board relays (or perhaps a little more eloquent a 4-pole relay). The relay would get its control signal from the Mach Dir output for direction (CW/CCW) and via the converter to your switching relay(s). The Mach step signal is converted to the analog voltage signal (e.g. take a look at CNC4PC C6 card [URL]http://cnc4pc.com/Tech_Docs/C6R5_WG.pdf[/URL]) The board requires a 12 Vdc power supply, and its onboard pot may let you sneak close to the full 12V range.

If trying to employ this method, it would be best to ensure the output transitioned down to 0 and up to setpoint rather than a rapid flip/flop at full speed. You may be able to make some change in Mach to ensure this or via Gcode to always set speed to 0 before a change in direction. Of course this all gets a little tricky if you hope to do rigid tapping or anything requiring rapid spindle direction change. In theory, you should be able to set the MACH control of the step/dir drive (converter) to limit the input to 25kHz and accel/decel curve to eliminate any concern. I believe within Mach that (someone else may want to pipe in to confirm or deny) the spindle control and associated M&S commands will be mapped to this assigned step/dir spindle output.

I know this somewhat contradicts my earlier upthread post on using this for servo drives, but other than tapping I tend to think the spindle would be far less demanding than an axis drive performing interpolated and arc/circular moves. Maybe with fast solid state relays (anyone like to comment)?? Of course the mentioned example, CNC4PC C6, has an input limit of 25kHZ, limiting its use for axis drives.

P.S. Just thoughts, experiment/analyze for your setup/application.

[quote=yantra3d;415618]Just wanted to add that I spoke with the fellow regarding the dynomotion boards and I think there may have been a misunderstanding somewhere because according to him they are [B]not [/B]limited to 500 blocks/sec in any way.

I agreed to do some testing on the Kflop board w/ both my lathe and mill so I will try to post results once I get rolling on them. I'll be using steppers on the lathe and brushed servos w/ the SnapAmp on the mill.[/quote]



You might want to check with Tom at Dynamotion about this. I have given him an example file to check the blocks/sec capacity of the KFlop/KMotion plugin.
Besides, 500 blocks/sec will only slow you down when you are machining a mold or die that has short line segments. I think even a Haas controller has a limit of 1000 blocks/sec processing speed, and we all know those machines can really move.:)

Trevor

Protman/Trevor,

Thanks for the updates. I'm anxious to hear your results and sure I'm not alone.

And thanks again for venturing forth on this one. New anything can cause a lukewarm or timid response. :)

HUH?

I am kind of new to all this, and will need to ask/reseach this stuff before I come to an idea of what I am doing

Thanks

[quote=woodturn;415944]Hey fellas

I have been working with this guy at the local Jr. college trying to get a 4400 running. So far we tied Mach into the existing AHHA drives. So the x y and Z are moving just fine through Mach. Our recent stumbling block has been trying to get Mach to drive to spindle. This is what we've done.

To unlock the brake on the spindle we cut the end off an extension cord and wired to the harness on top of the motor, and plugged it in...it seemed to unlock the brake just fine.

To get the spindle to turn we hooked up a -15/+15 VDC adjustable power supply, from the old electronics lab, to the servo dynamics pwm, and seemed to have some luck there. We had the spindle moving a different speeds according to the voltage that we supplied to it. We had a volt meter hooked to it, and I don't think we went over 10VDC.

But what we really want is a way to control the spindle through the parallel port from Mach.

Is this the same question you are all dealing with, or I am just opening a new can o' worms
[/quote]

You'll need a Hommann DigiSpeed or CNC4PC breakout board designed to drive a spindle. Some breakout boards will output a spindle signal as well.

They take step-dir signals and output the required +/- 10vdc to send a signal to the spindle drive. They both also include a relay to enable/disable the brake.

As far as the AHHA interface, it interfaces with the old electronics from Dyna, AFAIK. I would just take all old electronics out EXCEPT the stepper drives. These uses step/dir and you can connect them to a Mach3 controlled breakout board. This is better as the stock Dyna hardware has some speed limitations due to ancient chips used.

I designed some circuit boards to do just this, makes things a lot easier.

NOTE: just reading some stuff upthread and I could be wrong about the spindle drive as it may require a different signal than a VFD (which both the CNC4PC and Hommann units are designed for). My spindle drive is still broken and I am making one last attempt to fix it before I replace it with a new unit from Beel or Bardac

P.S. If anyone has any great ideas on how to troubleshoot my Servo Dynamics spindle drive, please PM me....

HTH,

Chris.

OK, so I just looked in the manual for the Servo Dynamics spindle drive and the input signal was clearly designed for a signal pot (scans of the relevant manual pages are below), so the spindle will need a signal as output by the CNC4pc or Hommann boards mentioned above.

HTH,

Chris.

Woodturn, Just so I am clear, Does your machine have the HA40CS motors on the X and Y axis with the HA80CS on the Z?

DSE

I am not sure what kind of steppers are on this exact machine. The guy before us hooked up the AHHA, so he may know, but he moved out of the area.

Got to get to work, the boss is comming

Hi all, I am Woodturn's friend who is working on the Dyna 4400 with him. What the main problem for us is that the SD30-60 drive we have for the spindle needs -15v and +15v to operate the internal circuitry and that power supply appears to have been removed along with the old control components. So If any of you experienced with the 4400 know where this -15v +15v came from, for example which board which board, please let me know. I am going to have to make a power supply if we don't have the original components and I don't have a lot of time to tinker with stuff.