New Machine Build Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

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Thread: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

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    Lightbulb Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Hi everyone.
    Ive been a super long time browser of the forum, and I actually find it embarrassing that I haven't joined until today. Crazy..
    Hopefully this is the correct sub forum to post up my machine build andquestions. I couldn't really find the forum that folks chat and discuss fullsize cnc conversions, they look to be mainly model specfic. Anyways, idigress.


    Over the past 3 years ive been working on a cnc conversion, and ive been slowly getting into a predicament over choosing a breakout board. Ive spent the last 3 years looking over the options and the past year really researching. Unfortunately ive become more confused over which way to go, obviously each application is different and with a few options ive narrowed it down to, its hard to decide which one wont bite me if i plan to expand my system in the future.

    This is going to be a long thread lol..

    Before I go into detail with my questions, ill give a brief/detailed history on the machine. The machine i am converting is a Excello 605 CNC. The machine was made in Canada around the mid 80’s and was designed to be a 3 axis cnc from new. Auto lubed box ways, ball screws, a semi auto collet changer; it was hybrid between a standard knee mill and a full tilt cnc machining center. Still weighting atleast 2x a standard bridgeport. This machine was the perfect basis to do an advance hobby/entry pro style cnc for my shop, and when the right deal popped up, i grabbed it in a heartbeat.
    The machine itself surprisingly is almost new, its only seen some basic acrylic machining during its lifetime, and spent the past 15 yrs covered up in the corner of a shop.

    The machine when i got it, had already partially been converted to use late 90’searly 2000 controls, but still used the original DC servos and resolvers. I spent about 30 min tinkering with the old proprietary system before i had enough and took the path that i wanted to take.

    Ill make alist of some of the goodies and conversions ive installed on it:

    -New 5hp spindle motor w/ GT2 timing belt drive driven by a Hitachi WJ200-055LF vfd that ive rated to work @240v 1PH household power, and has rs-485 that i plan to use.

    -3x Mitsubishi AC servo drives (2x Mr-j3-70A for x,y, and a Mr-j2-40a for the z)


    -All new Misumi 5GT series high precision timing belts & pulleys for the axis drives


    - Ethernet smoothstepper drive controller system. I currently have the servos running at a1Mhz pulse train


    -Dual redundant force guided safety relays, the whole safety system ive designed to be as close as possible to current automation safety requirements without going crazy. I have full safety relays on the servo drives as well. Im trying to make full wiring diagrams for the machine as i design and wire it up, i used to do automation equipment design, so i thought why not.


    - I plan to use PoKeysfor the HMI panel push buttons IO along with the BOB IO, that i can easily manually enable extra features within Mach3 (coolant mister, way oiler, x,y,z axisresets, etc)


    That is just a shortlist of the few things i have done.




    Now to get into business..Here my issue.

    Because i have a few extra features or requirements that most hobby cnc machines don’t have or need. My choices for a full featured Breakout Board are kind of narrowed. Currently I have 9 inputs for the xyz limits and homing microswitches. And a bunch of auxiliary relayed inputs and outputs that i want to control using the smooth stepper. Lets say (9+8 inputs, and ~8-10 relayed outputs)

    Right now for benchtesting, ive been tinkering about using some cheapy ebay china breakout boards to test the servo control circuts. And surprisingly they actually work decently, the xyz opto isolators actually can handle the 1mhz pulse train i put thru them, and haven’t dropped any steps.
    Technically i could use 3 of these cheapy BOB’s and hook them up to the smooth steppers 3 control outputs and all would be kinda ok, there are some slight issues; seeing that i would like to use most of the 2nd and 3rd bob IO as plain relay output controls or plain 5v/24v signal inputs.. Plus it being the heart of the machine, i want something a bit more pro.


    There are a few too manychoices out there for ESS BOBs and they literally have me confused.

    Add ontop of that, i amhoping to be able to control the VFD using RS485, but i would like a backup plan, maybe 0-10v control if i can get it figured out.

    I have my eyes set on afew BOB’s:

    • PMDX 126
    • CNC4PC C62+ 1x C35S
    • 3x CNC4PCC35S
    • 1x C32S +1x C35S


    Initially i wanted to use the PMDX 126 because of how many satisfied people there are with it, but it has a few features i don’t want, plus it seems to self power the ESS, which in mycase, i integrated a full 5v and 2x 24v power supply system in this machine.
    One 24v PS for the large contactor drivecircuit and safety system, and another one for the logic controls so i don’t get any high current/contactor surge feedback.


    The CNC4PC stuff seems to be more customizable to what i need (basically it looks like you just buy remote relays and IO RJ45 addon boards), but as silly as this might sound,there seems to be lacking info on some of the features, and their tech support hasn’tbeen the most helpful with detailed questions for “no yet customers” in my case at least.

    Are there any new similar options out there that i haven’t come across yet?
    I am almost about to bite the bullet on a CNC4PC setup, but i dont know what would be the best config for my system.
    See..confused yet. lol

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by Raptorex; 12-16-2016 at 05:34 PM.


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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Heres some before (on its way home), the old drives, and not so recent "updated" pics of the machine. I just begun populating the axis control box, and removed the drive control box for the VFD and power feed.

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605-img_1669-jpg   Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605-dsc_0274-jpg   Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605-img_2439-jpg   Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605-img_2497-jpg  



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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Both guys offer great products. IMO and I could be wrong (but I do run products from both) the PMDX seems more industrial. Wish I could say why.

    Regarding powering the ESS off of the 126, there is a jumper that would allow you to choose. (or that is the way it is on my old 126, not sure if there have been any changes)

    A lazy man does it twice.


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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    That's a nice machine you have there and you have gone with top of the line equipment so far. Why not do the same for the BoB or in this case go with a real motion controller for your BoB. I like Galil Motion Control products, not cheap, but full on industrial hardware. Fully compatible with Mach3, and if you decide to upgrade the CNC software it will remain compatible with most programs. Depending on the model, 40 to 80 uncommitted programmable I/O plus home and end limits for each axis, and high speed dual quadrature encoder inputs for each axis. Step & direction, +/- 10V analog, and PWM output for each axis. PCI bus, or Ethernet, USB and Serial communication.



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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Are there any new similar options out there that i haven’t come across yet?
    Yes. By default, this board also powers the ESS, but that can be disabled by removing a solder bridge.


    http://www.cncroom.com/break-out-board/smooth-stepper

    Gerry

    UCCNC 2017 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2017.html[/URL]

    Mach3 2010 Screenset
    [URL]http://www.thecncwoodworker.com/2010.html[/URL]

    JointCAM - CNC Dovetails & Box Joints
    [URL]http://www.g-forcecnc.com/jointcam.html[/URL]

    (Note: The opinions expressed in this post are my own and are not necessarily those of CNCzone and its management)


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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    In your position & with the quality of equipment and $$ you have invested, there's no question you should go straight to CSMIO (or the like) for many reasons.
    CS-Lab CNC controllers CNC Machining CNC software

    Milton in Tennessee ya'll!


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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Wow, thanks guys for the quick replies.

    I will definitely check out the Galil system. I did look over the CSMIO/IP-S system quickly, and it looks very promising. Im going to try and download the product manual for it, and read it over the weekend. And it looks to have RS485 built in.

    I suppose I can use my spare smooth steppers for a small cnc lathe project I have sitting on the shelf.

    I don't really need the full 6 axis, however I do have a large 12" rotary table that I could easily adapt a spare servo to it, and use it as a 4th axis on the machine.
    It looks like they have a Threading module as well; the CSMIO-ENC.. I suppose I could put an encoder on the spindle, and do ridged tapping?



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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Quote Originally Posted by Raptorex View Post
    It looks like they have a Threading module as well; the CSMIO-ENC.. I suppose I could put an encoder on the spindle, and do ridged tapping?
    Take a look at what Hood on the Mach forum does with a CSMIO IP-A: Rigid tapping with IP-A Heck, take a look at anything he does!

    Milton in Tennessee ya'll!


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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Take a look at the Hiconn Integra. 24V I/O and lots of it. Analog I/O, ability to run a 0-10v, +-10, or Gcode axis spindle.
    Ethernet and a whole bunch of other nice things.

    IIRC Galil doesn't do steppers well with the Mach3 plugin but YMMV.



    Mike

    Warning: DIY CNC may cause extreme hair loss due to you pulling your hair out.


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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Quote Originally Posted by TOTALLYRC View Post
    Take a look at the Hiconn Integra. 24V I/O and lots of it. Analog I/O, ability to run a 0-10v, +-10, or Gcode axis spindle.
    Ethernet and a whole bunch of other nice things.
    The Hiconn Integra does look to be pretty good as well. Seems to be a slightly toned down version of the CSMIO. I will download its manual and start reading up.



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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Well, I thought it would be good to give an update

    Last week I decided to bite the bullet and buy the CSMIO/IP-S and a few other goodies. I did a quick run thru the MR-J3-A servo drive manual, and the drives also have the ability to take the 0-10v input as well (when setup for speed control vs position control), so in theory I could of gotten the CSMIO/IP-A controller, and had direct encoder feedback.. But with this differential pulse train system I shouldn't have any issues with lost pulses or position errors with these premium drives.

    So the order included the CSMIO/IP-S controller, a CSMIO-ENC, CSMIO-MPG, and a CSMIO-IO

    I was glad they had the CSMIO-IO.. I was originally planning to use a Pokeys to run the front buttons on the HMI panel, but the CSMIO-IO will do everything I would want and more.. I can now hook up all the buttons anyway I want, and have all the leds for the buttons controlled as well, all with one system and have almost unlimited future expandability.


    As I wait for the goodies to show up, ive just been slowy updating the wiring schematics, and thinking about layout.

    One thing I would like to throw out there and get some feedback on would be a way to tackle the encoder setup for the ENC tapping module.. Having the ENC add-on working for ridged tapping is not exactly a necessity right away, but I am on the hunt for encoders and a bit curious on how to set it up. CS-labs suggest a 1:1 encoder to spindle ratio. Which might not be exactly what I can setup on my machine for a few reasons..

    -1st. this machine has a 2 speed gearbox. A high speed direct drive, and a low speed geared drive all integrated into the head transmission. There's a high speed/low speed selector on the front of which I have installed a roller contact switch so Mach can know what gear ratio it is in. Technically because I have a vfd I don't really need to use it. But I would like to so I can keep motor rpm's above 20hz while doing low speed tapping rpms.

    -2nd my timing belt drive is not 1:1 to the spindle input. i don't remember what it is off the top of my head, but if i can recall.. 90hz on the motor will give me around 6000-7000rpm spindle speed.

    I have 2 possible locations for an encoder. I can either install a regular rotary encoder on the top of the drive motor housing by the cooling fan, or i can go on the hunt for a magnetic ring encoder, and mount it on the spindle input shaft. The mag ring encoder being the most expensive option, and would still not be able to sense if it is in high speed or low speed on the gear box, and not be able to directly read the spindle position.

    Im assuming i would only need to use the encoder when doing tapping.. Thus only allowing tapping to be enabled when i select low speed on the gearbox, and teaching it the correct encoder counts per spindle revolution.?



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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    Well last week my CSMIO goodies showed up, and im super excided, these look to be great quality boards, and honestly it would of been a downgrade to go with anything less feature packed for this build. Ill be keeping my Smoothsteppers and basic BOB's for a small benchtop cnc lathe conversion that I am also working on.

    Now that this has sparked my motivation again for finishing the machine, I began the hunt for some tooling holders. The machine uses NMTB 40 holders, and it only came with one ER40 holder with a few misc collets. Ive use ER32's on my Bridgeport and love the system, and I decided that the ER32 system would be more the adequate for my needs on the cnc. I have a lot of packaged metric endmills, so im planning to get a full imperial and metric ER32 collet set for this. I picked up a decent amount of nos NMTB 40 - ER32 USA made holders to get me going, one of which will be permanently dedicated to my haimer taster.

    In the next few weeks ill begin moving a few things around in the cabinet to accommodate the CSMIO boards, and cant wait to finish it up



    On a side note.. seeing that this thread is going to turn into more of a machine build with a lot of details, could the seasoned members suggest which sub-forum I should post it in instead, or just change the title and keep on going with this one?



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    Default Re: Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

    I thought I would give an update on the machine. I cant believe its been a year +2 days since last talking about the machine.

    Progress has been slow, but recently ive been very busy with it, and pushing thru.

    I have nearly all the wiring done, and for the first time in over a decade the machine has come to life. I spend the good part of last summer finalizing my wiring diagrams, pendant setup/wiring, and estop/safety system integration, then working thru the tedious task of actual wiring.

    I worked on getting the Mitsubishi MR-J3's on the x and y wired up and sorted out. But once I got to wiring the Z which has an older MR-J2; I began to run into issues. I was having issues sorting out the IO polarity and wiring conventions for the J2 as it wasn't very similar to the J3's... I probably could of been able to sort it out, but in the end, I was a bit cautious using a 400w servo for the z, while I used more powerful/modern 750w's for the x,y. And this also meant I would have to keep spare parts for both units on the shelf. Long story short, I purchased a few more MR-J3 drives, and some more matching motors so everything was the same. Due to this, the Z axis no longer had any form of "magnetic brake", so I ended up purchasing a high speed electromagnetic clutch, and integrated it into the new belt reduction drive I made for the Z servo.

    All the pushbuttons on the HMI are all wired up, with corresponding backlighting control into the CSMIO-IO, I also got a nice RGY led banner status light working with a modified macro.

    Last month was the first time the machine actually moved under its own commands thru Mach3. With the pendant wired up into the CSMIO-MPG, I was easily able to control the axis and quickly setup axis orientation. The past few weeks I finalized the safety system integration, and have mach controlling the servo feedback loop (for error feedback and homing pulse feedback), as well as wiring up the new proxies for xyz home/-/+ limits into mach and the servo drives.

    Here are the things I have left to do:
    -VFD control setup (I really want to get the RS485 working but realizing it is a major feat, will probably do old school 0-10v)
    -Auto way lube control relays
    -Auto mist control
    -pneumatic drawbar impact system modified/working
    -install z-height probe
    -figure out a high speed encoder setup for the spindle/tapping setup
    -button up the machine covers
    -learn g-code
    -finalize wiring for removable 4th axis rotary table


    I really want to get onto the VFD control this upcoming week, anyone have any tips on preferred paths for the VFD control on the Hitachi WJ? there looks to be a few options. (0-10v), (5th axis step/dir) from csmio?



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Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605

Help with BOB choices, going crazy over a Excello 605