Thinking of buying an IH Mill

[willysnowman]

I finally have my house to a state where I can get a mill. The IH has always been on the top of my list. The list now is pretty much between this mill and a BP style knee mill. I have a ton of questions.

My main concern is IH as a company. What is their real lead times on mills? I understand the full payment has to be made up front. Is this true?

I have never seen or used a IH mill. I have used a Tormac and Bridgeport. In comparison to a Bridgeport style knee mill, are the any +/- differences? Has there been a time you wished you had a BP? How are the noise comparisons? Which one would you rather have for stainless steel?

I also have questions about the options. Why would you get the NT spindle vs the R8? Is it better to buy turnkey or CNC yourself (I would not mind learning how to do this)? Is the larger table worth it? Will all the options increase delivery time?

The last question is what are you thoughts on the MD001 mill?

Thanks for any answers!

Bill

[InterferenceFit]

Real lead times on a turnkey probably run about 3-4 months unless Tommy has caught up from where he was when I got my machine. Manual machines go out quick from what I've read. CNC kits could be a month or you could wait a year, kits have been the least predictable delivery-wise.

You do not have to pay up front. I gave Tommy a $1000 deposit on my machine, but not because he made me.

I have the NT spindle. Make sure you need it before you order it because you will definitely spend more money on your tooling if you go that route.

MD001 mill is an IH clone, quality will depend on how well they QC their machines. I think I remember hearing positive things about them, but I don't trust my memory completely.

I'm sure a BP will be quieter since its belt drive, but whether it can make a heavier cut depends on if you are able to find a machine in good condition. Although I'm a big believer in my IH machine, its hard for me to believe a BP in good shape couldn't slightly out-cut it in terms of metal removal rates. That being said I have used a carbide roughing / finishing endmill in my machine to make .025" cuts .815" deep at 35ipm. That's moving along pretty quick. I ordered a more aggressive end mill and a holder with a set screw and I expect to hit 50ipm or better.

My 2 pennies.

Henry

I finally have my house to a state where I can get a mill. The IH has always been on the top of my list. The list now is pretty much between this mill and a BP style knee mill. I have a ton of questions.

My main concern is IH as a company. What is their real lead times on mills? I understand the full payment has to be made up front. Is this true?

I have never seen or used a IH mill. I have used a Tormac and Bridgeport. In comparison to a Bridgeport style knee mill, are the any +/- differences? Has there been a time you wished you had a BP? How are the noise comparisons? Which one would you rather have for stainless steel?

I also have questions about the options. Why would you get the NT spindle vs the R8? Is it better to buy turnkey or CNC yourself (I would not mind learning how to do this)? Is the larger table worth it? Will all the options increase delivery time?

The last question is what are you thoughts on the MD001 mill?

Thanks for any answers!

Bill

[InterferenceFit]

Forgot to mention the roughing was in 1018 cold rolled. The tool and die machinist where I work was surprised by how much machine I was able to get for $12k. He rarely pushes his mori mills(strange cnc toolroom machines with mpg handwheels for each axis, waaaay cool versatile machines) much harder that what I've been running at. The big difference is that he has another 30-40% he could push it with a bigger cutter. Normal sized cutters (3/4" and below) we're running same feeds and speeds.

I can't stress enough how important it is for YOU to go through YOUR machine to make sure its setup as well as possible. Its the single best thing you can do, no matter what you buy.

Henry

[jetflatline]

CNC kits could be a month or you could wait a year, kits have been the least predictable delivery-wise.

I was quoted 6-8 weeks, it ended up taking about a year before I had everything for my kit, and that only after I demanded a refund.

As far as comparing it to a BP, my manual IH is nice, but I'd much rather have a BP but size was an issue. If you have room for a full-size BP, go for it. It looks like I'm going to have to do a preventive tear-down/build-up what is basically a new mill (see posts about people frying their bearings) and I'd do the same if I bought a used BP.

[willysnowman]

Real lead times on a turnkey probably run about 3-4 months unless Tommy has caught up from where he was when I got my machine. Manual machines go out quick from what I've read. CNC kits could be a month or you could wait a year, kits have been the least predictable delivery-wise.

You do not have to pay up front. I gave Tommy a $1000 deposit on my machine, but not because he made me.

I have the NT spindle. Make sure you need it before you order it because you will definitely spend more money on your tooling if you go that route.

MD001 mill is an IH clone, quality will depend on how well they QC their machines. I think I remember hearing positive things about them, but I don't trust my memory completely.

I'm sure a BP will be quieter since its belt drive, but whether it can make a heavier cut depends on if you are able to find a machine in good condition. Although I'm a big believer in my IH machine, its hard for me to believe a BP in good shape couldn't slightly out-cut it in terms of metal removal rates. That being said I have used a carbide roughing / finishing endmill in my machine to make .025" cuts .815" deep at 35ipm. That's moving along pretty quick. I ordered a more aggressive end mill and a holder with a set screw and I expect to hit 50ipm or better.

My 2 pennies.

Henry

Thanks for the feedback. It is good to hear about the lead time for the manual machines! From the feedback I have been reading, everyone is happy with the IH mills (minus delivery times). This mainly seems to be the upgrade kits. Those cutting speeds would definitely work for me.

Why did you go with the NT spindle? Does this allow for rapid tool changes you cannot do with the R8?

I'll take your advice on and strip down whatever machine I get. The IH is much easier in this area than a BP.

Bill

[InterferenceFit]

Don't discount the delivery issues and how they can affect you both before and after you actually get the machine(like if you need parts). Make sure you can afford to wait, or bird-dog everything. I liked Tommy when I went to see him, and for the most part he has done right by me, but there have definitely been people who have not had the same luck. Jetflatline would definitely be someone who unfortunately had the opposite experience. His tale of delay and disappointment is easy to find in this sub-forum.

As for the NT spindle, I would have to have bought new higher quality tooling anyway, and I wanted the flexibility of being able to have tooling that stays put once I put it in a collet. I could also see doing some sort of ATC or at the least a powered drawbar (buying or building) at some point in the future. You can put pull studs in the 30 taper tooling and not have to have a threaded drawbar, and the inherent unrepeatability that goes along with that. I know R8 is supposed to be good for more than the 3HP that my spindle is, but I wanted the extra buffer.

It comes down to 2 things, the machine is great, the service varies from person to person. With other companies selling clones, I'm less worried about finding parts long term, as someone somewhere should be able to get parts.

Thanks for the feedback. It is good to hear about the lead time for the manual machines! From the feedback I have been reading, everyone is happy with the IH mills (minus delivery times). This mainly seems to be the upgrade kits. Those cutting speeds would definitely work for me.

Why did you go with the NT spindle? Does this allow for rapid tool changes you cannot do with the R8?

I'll take your advice on and strip down whatever machine I get. The IH is much easier in this area than a BP.

Bill

[sharpshooter90]

I finally have my house to a state where I can get a mill. The IH has always been on the top of my list. The list now is pretty much between this mill and a BP style knee mill. I have a ton of questions.

My main concern is IH as a company. What is their real lead times on mills? I understand the full payment has to be made up front. Is this true?

Bill

From what I read on this forum, IH built a rep by buying Chinese mills and then re-working them here and adding CNC systems. It was a successful formula until one of the founders passed away. Since then, the general tone is one of poor organization and delays plus problems with quality control. Like a lot of small businesses, it may have relied too much on the dedication of the person who is no longer around. US Customs records show that IH bought 43 mills in June of 2009 and has imported none since then. My gut reaction to that is they are selling down the inventory and not adding more.

If you are concerned about paying up front, try your local bank and ask about a domestic letter of credit. A domestic LC will spell out the terms of the sale and fix a delivery date. IH cannot collect on the LC unless they present the required documents to your bank on time. An LC is irrevocable, so IH is guaranteed payment if they deliver, but it does expire, so you are guaranteed a machine or your money back.

[willysnowman]

As for the NT spindle, I would have to have bought new higher quality tooling anyway, and I wanted the flexibility of being able to have tooling that stays put once I put it in a collet. I could also see doing some sort of ATC or at the least a powered drawbar (buying or building) at some point in the future. You can put pull studs in the 30 taper tooling and not have to have a threaded drawbar, and the inherent unrepeatability that goes along with that. I know R8 is supposed to be good for more than the 3HP that my spindle is, but I wanted the extra buffer.

3HP Wow!

I need to get my terminology right. I want to do a power drawbar. Since this will not be a production machine, I do not think I will have the need for a ATC. I do want to do a power drawbar similar to what Bob Warfield has over at his sight.

[willysnowman]

From what I read on this forum, IH built a rep by buying Chinese mills and then re-working them here and adding CNC systems. It was a successful formula until one of the founders passed away. Since then, the general tone is one of poor organization and delays plus problems with quality control. Like a lot of small businesses, it may have relied too much on the dedication of the person who is no longer around. US Customs records show that IH bought 43 mills in June of 2009 and has imported none since then. My gut reaction to that is they are selling down the inventory and not adding more.

If you are concerned about paying up front, try your local bank and ask about a domestic letter of credit. A domestic LC will spell out the terms of the sale and fix a delivery date. IH cannot collect on the LC unless they present the required documents to your bank on time. An LC is irrevocable, so IH is guaranteed payment if they deliver, but it does expire, so you are guaranteed a machine or your money back.

Good info. Thanks

How did you get the information on US customs?

[InterferenceFit]

Just curious if the US Customs info is up to date or carried over from previous threads. I know Tommy said he had more on order this summer. He should have them by now or very soon I would expect. If you already checked recently (within last month) no worries, but if not you may check and see if the claimed order ever got here. It's entirely possible he never got them ordered. It would be disappointing if IH is dying a slow death, I called a week or two ago with a question and Tommy sounded like he was still quite busy.

And a 3HP spindle is an option from IH. I took it for the extra low end torque when using the VFD. Was not much more than the 2HP option.

From what I read on this forum, IH built a rep by buying Chinese mills and then re-working them here and adding CNC systems. It was a successful formula until one of the founders passed away. Since then, the general tone is one of poor organization and delays plus problems with quality control. Like a lot of small businesses, it may have relied too much on the dedication of the person who is no longer around. US Customs records show that IH bought 43 mills in June of 2009 and has imported none since then. My gut reaction to that is they are selling down the inventory and not adding more.

[willysnowman]

Just curious if the US Customs info is up to date or carried over from previous threads. I know Tommy said he had more on order this summer. He should have them by now or very soon I would expect. If you already checked recently (within last month) no worries, but if not you may check and see if the claimed order ever got here. It's entirely possible he never got them ordered. It would be disappointing if IH is dying a slow death, I called a week or two ago with a question and Tommy sounded like he was still quite busy.

And a 3HP spindle is an option from IH. I took it for the extra low end torque when using the VFD. Was not much more than the 2HP option.

I talked to Tommy today. He said a manual mill are in stock and ready to ship. I did not get any impressions of a dying business.

Of course, he never emailed me a quote....

[sharpshooter90]

Good info. Thanks

How did you get the information on US customs?

You can go to
Import Genius : U.S. Customs Database and Competitive Intelligence Tools
However, it's not free- I'm lucky to have a friend who subscribes.
Info is updated quarterly, so its accurate as of end of September.

Just for comparison, in CNC machines-
TORMACH PC 1100 - 65, PC 770 - 40
SMITHY 12-40 -7, 622 - 6
NOVAKON- 0
MACHINE TOOLS WAREHOUSE -0
SYIL - 0

info on Syil, Novakon and MTW may be off, because they take orders and have machines shipped direct from the factory to the consumer.