motogp or F1 Single cylinder research engine

[NC Cams]

RACECOMP:

Engine "life requirements" are usually set by the 90th percentile demands of the particular operating environment.

Wherease a 4-6 second pass is accceptable before rebuild time for a fueler, the same life span anticipation for a motoGP application would surely be totally unaccceptable.

Ok, then what about a 250 mile life span? To the maker of a passenger care engine, a 250 mile life span would be a joke - they are regularly challenged to go 100K plus miles before a rebuild.

Then again, specify a 100K mile life span as "normal" to a diesel engine maker and they'll probably flinch - they are challenged to make engines with 500K plus life spans.

My "life span" comment that you quoted was taken out of context - in the context intented, I was referring to "infinite life" in terms that ANY reader would/could use to judge engine life for THEIR particular field of interest.

Why not 2 strokes? Emissions for one, fuel efficiency another. There is no doubt that a 2 stroke can/will make more power than a 4 stroke for an engine displacement for a given size. However, even in the bike market where emissions and fuel efficiency are becoming of concern, 4 strokes are replacing two strokes - mostly via rules but life is full of them that you have to adapt to or bust.

There may also be an issue of practicality. The closest I ever got to hearing a 500cid 2 stroke was when they used to put 180 deg over the top headers on big block V-8 dirt race cars. Absolutely punishing, chest tearin sound intensity which alone would disuade you from even thinking about making a 500 cid 2 stroke.

Dare I say that the challenge of crafting up a 500cid high revving 2 stroke might be an interesting effort. Although it wasn't that hard for Detroit Diesel to do with diesels as their 71 series engines were side ported, valve in head 2 strokes.

But, come to think of it, even they became challenged with meeting ever more stringent fuel economy and emissions standards that the industry is faced with meeting since Y2K.

[racecomp]

Our engine builder/designer in this instance may not be concerned about emissions and fuel usage; it may be ultimate power that is the goal and not long life duration.
I look forward to seeing the test bed prototype engine.


Two strokes, I love’ em built and raced 500cc for years.
A few years ago I made a twin 500cc motor with fully enclosed carbon crankcases and twin rotary disks. I also made my own hydro formed pipes with multi cone rear etc.

I still have that motor (in bits now don’t ask) It run flat slide carbs with solenoid power jets at the time.

If I was to resurrect it again it would be fuel injected, I’ve learned a lot since then about ECU’s and injection, I now do the odd turbo kit for bikes just to keep my hand in…….. The carbon fibre industry takes up most of my time nowadays.

I wish jlcortes all the best with this project, keep at it mate and never stop looking and learning.

[FPV_GTp]

Originally Posted by racecomp NC CAMS: An engine "lives" when it can run with NO maintenance for long periods. Dont tell a top fuel engine builder that!!! His engine will only just last one pass, during the pass it will only do about 750 revolutions give or take a few rev's from stat to finish on a good run and then it will be pulled apart again..... It's been a good read; why not just make a two stroke engine? You would make the sort of power that you are after relatively easy compared to a four stroke..... I can help you with a fully programmable ECU that can look after fuel injection, ignition and cooling fans that will adapt to any motor 4 or 2 stroke; it's just like a Motec but for a 10th of the cost.... Interested????

hi

what ECU ? are you talking about ?????


cheers

[NC Cams]

Could be MegaSquirt... It has supposedly been updated to EFI and ignition ECU in latest rendition.

[racecomp]

It’s Sagem MC1000 ecu with TuneBoy programmable software. These ECU’s are used on late model Triumph’s you buy the ECU key from Tuneboy (www.tuneboy.com.au) and off you go. The main sensors on the ECU are all 5 volt etc so you can use what ever sensors you like. You could also use a Kiehn ECU from Triumph or KTM Super Duke, these ECU’s are also fully programmable with TuneBoy.

Out of the two I prefer the Sagem, very simple and easy to program on the fly in real time. You can also data log O2, TPS, RPM and temperature all at the same time.
All fully programmable with TuneBoy. You can pick up all the parts that are used on the Triumph motorcycles that you need from fleabay. It will require 12 volts to run the system though….. By changing the pickup sensor on the crank you can set it for as many cylinders as you like.

The early MC2000 ECU also has a cam timing sensor and a drive wheel speed indicator to restrict full power at low speed…

I turbo Triumph’s and mapping for fuel and ignition is easy with this program, I do use a piggyback to control boost fuelling unfortunately the Sagem only samples air pressure every 12 seconds. So the piggy reads from the MAP sensor, crude but very effective!!!

A very easy and ultra tuneable bit of kit. Go to TuneBoy and download the program it’s free, you will need a cable OBDII to USB that is specific to TuneBoy, you can use it on any computer or lap top…….

TuneBoy is also a full diagnostic program as well; I would be lost without it!!!!

I could fit one of these units to virtually any motor and fuel inject it very easily.
The best of it is that if you fry or damage any of it you can just go and get another one from the wreckers or fleabay!!!

It’s a poor mans Motec but it works just as good IMHO.

[racecomp]

This is one of our turbo bikes, runs 6psi on STD comp and pump fuel. It's a very tractable lazy mans bike, makes good boost from 2500 rpm and revs freely to 9500 rpm, but you never need to go that high in the rev range.

With almost no lag it’s the perfect combo for both road and track riding, with around 50 bhp extra and 110ftlb of torque it's a blast........ The kit is made for fast hills type riding and makes boost at low RPM so it gives a very strong linear power delivery!!! Having said that if you stupid enough to wrist it very hard it will spit you off!!!!

[Rustybolt]

Originally Posted by Eson This is a very cool project and i give you much creds to accually pull it off. I belive too that the biggest challange will be the valvetrain. Maybe you should go fully electric or pneumatic on the valvetrain? I belive that an electromagnet could keep up but i do know that pneumatic valves do. In the left picture you can see a ghost image of the valve.

FWIW
A model engine builder in England has done such a thing with computer operated solonoids valves on a two cylinder motor. No valvetrain. No gears. Supposed to be very fast and smooth.

[stevehuckss396]

Originally Posted by Rustybolt FWIW A model engine builder in England has done such a thing with computer operated solonoids valves on a two cylinder motor. No valvetrain. No gears. Supposed to be very fast and smooth.

See lf this link works

http://rbowes1.11net.com/dbowes/

[NC Cams]

The EVIC engine is quite interesting especially in light of the fact that it runs and seems to live.

However, I don't recall seeing power output comparisons or even a power rating of the engine - admittedly, I didn't d/l each and every page. The fact that it runs over such a RPM range that pushes 10K is quite encouraging.

The amount of valve lift seems to be quite low compared to what is customary for a typical IC engine - even low performance ones. The trick, however to making lots of power at high speed is to get LOTS of air flow in short periods of time. I don't see how that is going to be possible for low lift solenoid valves.

Any time we've increased the AUC (area under the lift curve) while maintaining short/relatively short valve durations, we've increased low speed torque and NOT detracted from upper/high RPM power. The only way to do this (without going to massive ports which make the engines lazy responding and very peaky) is to increase lift. By getting the valve out of the way, you REALLY decrease pumping losses, especially when the piston is asking for air at the highest period of demand (while the piston is at peak velocity).

To some extent, the things you do to reduce "pumping losses" at low piston velocities can actually make the engine much more sensitive and/or intolerant of Air/Fuel ratios and/or spark timing. Thus, although you theoretically gain efficiency due to reduced pumping losses, you lose what you gain (and often more) by losing the ability to run more spark advance.

In small bore engines where flame propogation are not so problematic this may not be an issue nor a concern. However, as you gain speed and have a bigger bore with a more turbulent chamber to burn across, you need to advance the spark to affect complete and proper burning. Long spark durations simply aren't enough.

The natural EGR that occurs from valve overlap seems to help this in two ways. 1. it enables you to run more spark without knock which enhances burning in the cyl while you can avail yourself of the expaning/burning gasse. 2. It does contribute some residual heat and or turbulence which can help to mix/vaporize fuel, especially if fuel has been "dumped" into the port as raw fuel that is not properly "prepared" (atomized).

There are some complicated things that are going on in the port that need to interact properly with the piston that is NOT moving at a constant velocity. There DEFINITELY is a relationship that a lot of poppet valve tinkerers do NOT consider when they instantaneously open and close valves - especially when the piston is at TDC and BDC. Some of these relationships are simply ignored for high speed engine use. However, to get an engine to run WELL over a wide range often prooves to be the undoing of many a designer/tuner.

I've worked on both high speed race and low speed production engine valve systems. Each has its own challenges. In some respects, high speed stuff is pretty easy - getting and engine to run smooth and well from 5-600 rpm idles (critical for idle qualtity and emissions and fuel efficiency anymore) to 7000rpm would be more impressive to a production engine designer than from 2K to 9K.

Anymore, we can take "antiquated" pushrod, heavy valved production engines and turn them 9000+ all day long anymore. With EFI and electronic engine controls, some guys can run them from 500 to 7000 rpm and pass emissions too.

The EVIC does, however prove viability of concept - something that some OEM guys I know couldn't do with way more budget money than the EVIC designer did. For that, he's to be commended.

My only challenge to him would be to make and record the power output of his EVIC to a comparabley sized conventional engine. And then compare its operating characteristics at comparable RPM's. Simply running the engine at 10K says a LOT. Getting it to make POWER, will shout VOLUMES.

[BobF]

This is really a great thread. Thanks to all who contributed. Wish I had seen it earlier.

[elmerfud]

Hello jlcortes,
its been a while since i last visited, hows it going?
did you machine all those parts for the motor?
is it close to running?
i did not build that V10, i was dreaming i think.
here is a cad 2d of a ferrari V8 for you to enjoy?
keep going with the motor mate, i hope you get there.
if it went into the 'tohardbasket' be sure to show us how for along it came.
Could mario forghieri, keith duckworth, mario illien, paolo martinelli please post some cad anytime?

[FPV_GTp]

Since this post as stopped, I will post this article. IF anyones interested I have no further uses for this machine, Heenan and Froude G490EH Engine Dynamometer, still up for grabs this is a Rolls Royce with F1 Ferrari speed engine dynamometer.

here are few photographs this Heenan and Froude G490EH engine dynamometer is the F1 Ferrari of engine dynamometers. The dyno has not been miss used in any way shape or form and has not been alternated from its original condition when it was purchased from Heenan and Froude. Some of the World Top racing teams in the US use this type of dyno and they are built to out last you and I. They are rated at continuous use where the other brands are rate for very short duty cycle use

Couple up a innovate - ST-12: Engine Data Acquisition System http://www.innovatemotorsports.com/products/st12.php and you have one awesome engine testing facility

Engine Pressure Analysis Systems : Combustion - Intake - Exhaust http://www.tfxengine.com/
Couple up this TFX software/hardware would be one awesome tool to have but just how fine does one go about analizing a engine.

http://www.depac.com/pics--flics.htm
Checkout the video clip " June 2009 - - Ed Pink Racing Engines 14612 Raymer St., Van Nuys, CA 91405 , DEPAC ADL system on Froude G490. Detailed development of a Toyota TRD Midget engine. Natural Sweep to 9400 RPM. Ed Pink now has his 2nd complete DEPAC-ADL packages on his two Froude G490 dynos. DEPAC #548 and #434

Some serious hardware and software here just a pitty its not open source sharing.