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    Default F5 issues

    We got a Machitech Diamond Cut water table with the HPR130xd last May. We finally got our bottle of F5 from our Vern Lewis guy a couple months ago, apparently it had to shipped in from California. The first time I tried to use to to cut a stainless bezel for a race radio I had problems, it didn't fully pierce and ruined my scratch free piece of stainless. Ended up da sanding another piece and using the n2/n2 process due to the lack of time. Later started trying to cut with it again we had the same issue, ended up slowing the speed down a good amount and raising the cut height, sometimes it cuts good, sometimes it does not. Ended up scrapping a half sheet of .06 SS due to this. Then we ordered in some 60 amp HDi consumables hoping to gets some nice suts out of 1/8 and 1/4" SS, figuring that this was there high definition top notch setup I expected a decent cut on my first piece... well that didn't happen instead we had the same problem as with the 45 amp f5/n2. So now I'm starting to think that there is something wrong with our F5 bottle we got, has anyone had similar issues? I don't really want to keep wasting material and consumables, specially when I'm getting better cut quality with N2/N2.

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    Default Re: F5 issues

    Blimey that's a heck of a long time to get a bottle of gas, here in the UK I can get one the next day!
    We have the same HPR130XD plasma fitted to a Techserv Blue Marlin and we get good results with the F5/N2 setup and much, much better than with N2/N2. In fact it was due to this that we upgraded from a Powermax 105 to our current machine.
    Admittedly there is always a slight bevel on the cut (which is greater than on mild steel) no matter how we adjust all the settings so I have concluded that this must be the nature of the process. In fact, I have spoken to someone who tells me that he was told by Hypertherm that there is actually no True Hole for stainless steel!!!
    The one thing that I suggest you check is that you definitely have all the correct consumables fitted for the setup that you are using. In our early days we had similar cutting issues and I found that it was caused by having the wrong nozzle retaining cap fitted.
    We use our machine for cutting almost the full range that it is capable of and because of this we have literally every consumable available (apart from bevel & mirror cutting) and we also use Air, O2, N2, F5 & H35. This means that there are many setup configurations that my employees have to fit and by simply using the Hypertherm part numbers/cut charts it was very easy to fit the wrong part.
    To overcome this I spent a lot of time producing a 'T' card system which although not foolproof, certainly makes the job of selecting the appropriate consumable a lot easier and I would certainly recommend anyone using a similar plasma system for cutting a wide range of materials to consider setting up something similar, especially when you consider the price of the consumables and how easy it is to ruin them with the wrong setup!
    I have attached a couple of pictures of what I have done.F5 issues-img_1022-jpgF5 issues-img_1024-jpg



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    Consumables are correct, gas pressures are correct, air is dry...



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    How is your earth? Something we have done in the past is to clamp the earth clamp directly onto the sheet instead of relying on it grounding through the bed of the machine especially with thin stainless steel as it expands so quickly it can lift off the bed in places and therefore give intermittent contact.
    Which gas console are you using Manual or Automatic?



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    How are you cutting, under water, water to the bottom of the plate, or dry?
    Manual or auto gas console?
    How did you check the gas pressure? At the bottle, or between the metering console and the torch?

    Thick sheet will always have less bevel, where thinner materials will have more taper on the edge.
    Truehole is not available for stainless or aluminim, only for mild steel, and you can only cut it dry, not under water.



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    Ground is good, we can cut the same part on the same sheet with N2/N2 factory settings with no issues. We cut thin stainless with the with the water at the bottom of the plate and it is a auto gas console. I have checked pressures at the bottle and at the console. Originally I thought it might be a purge time issue switching from marking to cutting, but it does it whether or not the file has marking. We never had any issues with stainless until we tried the F5, which is why i'm leaning toward a bad or incorrect bottle mix, but as little as we use it and the cost I don't want to order another bottle just to see if it fixes the problem unless I know for sure.
    At this point it is just frustrating, I can understand having this issue with a custom process (we have a few for aluminum that cut beautifully once fine tuned) but a factory process I expected to be....usable out of the box...



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    I can imagine your frustration, we have the manual gas console so I can't offer any advice regarding yours.
    I would suggest contacting Hypertherm regarding this problem as it seem strange that you are ok with N2/N2 and hopefully they may have seen this problem before.
    Incidentally, I found it very worthwhile 'haggling' with my gas supplier regarding the cost of F5, for a L47 200 bar cylinder I was originally quoted about £145.00 each but I am now paying £40.00 which I believe is around $62.00 (if you don't mind me asking, what did you pay?)



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    I'd have to find the invoice for the exact amount but I remember it was a little over $100 (came from California, we are in Arizona), we originally had ordered H35 with the thought that we could use it on aluminum and SS, but they messed that up and sent us 35% Hydrogen and 65% Nitrogen-(instead of Argon). Then after looking into it more we decided F5 would better suit us for the thinner SS we do...or so I thought lol. Machitech is supposed looking into it with Hypertherm. Not to bash them but I personally am a little turned off by contacting Hypertherm directly based on my recent experience with one of there reps at the FABTECH show in Atlanta, asked a couple questions concerning this problem and other consumable questions hoping maybe they would direct me to Jim Colt but instead I had to deal with someone who's lack of knowledge frustrated me more than anything, since then I've gotten probably 5 calls (all soliciting: trying to sell me a new table, expand/upgrade my table, or sell me consumables...?). Hence why I'm looking for more of a hands on opinion without a sales pitch...



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    What controller are you using? How is the gas selection send to the gasconsole?
    If you use the hypertherns edge controller it will be with hypernet, and i'm sure that will be ok.
    If you are using any other controller the gasses, amperage and pressures are send by RS422 communication. There are numbers for the gas selection. I think oxygen is 6, air is 5, argon is 7, etc.
    Could be a typ fault in your table causing the hpr to select a wrong process.

    You could use a dc amp clamp meter to check the current. Measure in both the torch and the work lead.
    If you open the gas console and metering console you could see on the led's for what valves are opened. In the hpr manual should be a scheme somewhere how the gasses go through the metering and selection console. Follow the scheme and check if the right gasses are selected.

    If you already checked the gaspressure after the metering console, and the gas pressure is good, and the current is good, then all that could be wrong is the gas itself.

    Are you using genuine hyperthem consumables ?

    Regards,
    Sascha



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    Oh. And could you post some pictures of what goes wrong? How the cutting looks like.
    Do the consumables stay ok, or fast destroyed?



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    Sorry I did not find this post earlier. I have no idea why it took you so long to get a cylinder of f5 gas...it is simply a premix of 5% hydrogen and 95% nitrogen. With this mix you need to follow the cut charts in your operators manual exactly. The cut speeds, the amperage, the cut height are absolutely critical. You need to be using the correct shield gas as well. This gas mix should be easy to get at any major gas supplier such as Airgas, Praxair and others.

    I was at the Fabtech show in Atlanta for the duration.....although I do have a lot of speaking engagements at that show so I may not have been at the booth when you came by. Often...it is not best to speak with just any sales person in the booth in regards to cut quality issues as they can get rather technical in nature. You can always contact Hypertherm's technical service group, or contact me either on line or by calling Hypertherm and asking for me. another great source of help is from the OEM machine builder that sold you the machine (I think you said Machitek?)....they are experts at solving cut quality issues such as yours.

    I will need more detail about your machine, as well as what you are cutting to help. What cnc controller, what CAM software, is it auto-gas or manual gas, what type and thickness of stainless, what process power level (amperage) and consumables were you using? The F5 process works extremely well on thin stainless, however you cannot stray from the suggested cut specs. F35 (35% hydrogen, 65% argon) does not work on thin stainless....it should be used on stainless 1/4" and thicker for decent results.

    Best regards, Jim Colt jim.colt@hypertherm.com


    Quote Originally Posted by Cmcclure View Post
    I'd have to find the invoice for the exact amount but I remember it was a little over $100 (came from California, we are in Arizona), we originally had ordered H35 with the thought that we could use it on aluminum and SS, but they messed that up and sent us 35% Hydrogen and 65% Nitrogen-(instead of Argon). Then after looking into it more we decided F5 would better suit us for the thinner SS we do...or so I thought lol. Machitech is supposed looking into it with Hypertherm. Not to bash them but I personally am a little turned off by contacting Hypertherm directly based on my recent experience with one of there reps at the FABTECH show in Atlanta, asked a couple questions concerning this problem and other consumable questions hoping maybe they would direct me to Jim Colt but instead I had to deal with someone who's lack of knowledge frustrated me more than anything, since then I've gotten probably 5 calls (all soliciting: trying to sell me a new table, expand/upgrade my table, or sell me consumables...?). Hence why I'm looking for more of a hands on opinion without a sales pitch...




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    Default Re: F5 issues

    F5 issues-imag0845-jpgF5 issues-imag0844-jpg



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    HPR130XD, Autogas console, Edge Pro Controller, Pronest 2015 version 11.0.5.5518. We are using genuine Hypertherm consumables we purchased through Machitech. We have a dedicated drawer system with labeled compartments for our consumables and setups, as well as a tag we hang next to the torch stating what setup is in the torch. We have been cutting or attempting to cut .06 with 45 amp, .125 with 45 and 60 amp, and 1/4" with 60 amp. We can easily produce nice cuts with N2/N2 gas selection but F5/N2 with factory settings will not fully cut the part from the plate, we tried slowing down the IPM and got better results but it still cuts worse than N2/N2.



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    As I said earlier I had also been told that Truehole was not available for stainless steel.
    However, we have the Techserv controller which does not use Hypertherms Truehole but has it's own version called Superhole which in my opinion is far superior to Truhole as it does actually work with stainless & aluminium.
    It is also a lot more user friendly.



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    TrueHole is Hypertherm's process that uses the CAM software to modify existing .dxf files 100% automatically, no operator or programmer inputs whatsoever. When someones tells me it is not user friendly...then I know they have never used or been trained regarding this process! The machine user needs to do absolutely nothing to use TrueHole on the systems that are equipped with it. It was designed for Carbon steel only....and that it because eliminating taper (on holes) is done with an automatic shield gas change that occurs in miliseconds at the beginning of every hole as soon as the pierce is complete. Hypertherm has patented this gas switch (which essentially changes the shield gas to pure oxygen for holes only), and no one else in the industry has even close to quality of TrueHole technology on steel. Again, no user or programmer input, simply import any dxf file into the CAM software and lead ins, lead in speeds, kerf compensation, overburns, plasma off timing are all automatically set up for every hole that fits the TrueHole technology profile. Keep in mind that to eliminate taper completely, oxygen shield is used, to eliminate the beginning and ending dings and divots proper lead in shapes , speeds and kerf widths must be developed for each hole diameter, each thickness and each power level. Developing this technology required an intense 3 year engineering project that was done in Hypertherm's advanced engineering labs in NH with the CNC, the CAM software, and the plasma process engineers all working jointly to integrate each system component to optimize hole cutting. The True Hole process also requires cnc cutting machines to have mechanical backlash specifications as well as machine acceleration specs that fall within Hypertherm's requirements....or else True Hole will not be licensed to the machine builders.

    So, those that have used and understand the TrueHole process know why it was developed for mild steel, and how it uses the exothermic bonus of an oxygen shield (patented) to eliminate hole taper and eliminate edge nitriding, as well as using motion control and process timing to eliminate the start stop dings and divots. Hypertherm has advanced hole technology for non-ferrous as well....and this technology is not called TrueHole, rather it is just part of our CAM software and it works in conjunction with the normal gases and processes that are used on stainless steel. Since it is simpler, CAM manipulated technology we do not consider this technology special.....as some software and CNC companies do!

    Since Hypertherm introduced True Hole....virtually every competitor thatproduces plasma cutters, CAM software...and CNC controls for plasma cutting....has introduced hole process manipulation that definitely improves hole quality, however none of them can copy the TrueHole technology that Hypertherm uses for steel hole technology based on the patents that are behind the process gas change.

    Think about it.....the technology leader in Hypertherm spends 3 years with advanced engineering cutting hundreds of thousands of holes, measuring each on CMM machines, then returning to the lab and modifying the process, cut holes, remeasure, and after three years we have reams of data about hole cutting that is agreed upon by the Plasma, the CAM, the CNC engineering groups. Other companies simply copied the techniques (that were not patentable) in the Hypertherm software, named it a cool process name (there are half a dozen!), and all stated it was "better". Which would you put your money on?

    Best regards, Jim Colt


    Quote Originally Posted by Simonh1959 View Post
    As I said earlier I had also been told that Truehole was not available for stainless steel.
    However, we have the Techserv controller which does not use Hypertherms Truehole but has it's own version called Superhole which in my opinion is far superior to Truhole as it does actually work with stainless & aluminium.
    It is also a lot more user friendly.




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    Default Re: F5 issues

    Hi Jim,

    Thanks for the feedback, you are indeed correct in so much as I have never used your system but I did not actually say yours was not user friendly what I did say was that I thought the Techserv was a lot more user friendly.
    I came to this conclusion following my investigations prior to purchasing my machine, I had seen quite a few demonstrations and while I was at one exhibition and looking at a machine with the full Hypertherm system the salesman asked me what I thought of it and I replied that I thought it was complicated in comparison to the Techserv system which I had been looking at previously. His replay was that his system was somewhat more complicated but there was no need to worry as it had an extensive help menu. Now that's great if you have one or two dedicated operators but in our general jobbing shop everyone needs to be able to set the machine up and operate it with the minimum of fuss and that is where (in my opinion) our system is more user friendly and we get great results with minimal issues.

    Following on from your explanation of your TrueHole technology and how it relies on changing the gasses automatically, does that mean that you can only have TrueHole capability if you have an Automatic gas console, even if you have the Hypertherm control system as I can't honestly remember ever seeing that mentioned when I was looking to purchase a system in the first place?



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    You are correct that Auto Gas is needed, you also need CAM software that has the True Hole process embedded. It is certainly more expensive to purchase the complete cnc machine with True Hole technology, but on steel......no one can match the hole quality and ease of use. It is a complex system, but to the operator and programmer there it is absolutely transparent. There is no "setup", the CAM auto recognizes part features ( such as holes) that can be improved, and modifies the machine code to do so.

    Jim Colt


    Quote Originally Posted by Simonh1959 View Post
    Hi Jim,

    Thanks for the feedback, you are indeed correct in so much as I have never used your system but I did not actually say yours was not user friendly what I did say was that I thought the Techserv was a lot more user friendly.
    I came to this conclusion following my investigations prior to purchasing my machine, I had seen quite a few demonstrations and while I was at one exhibition and looking at a machine with the full Hypertherm system the salesman asked me what I thought of it and I replied that I thought it was complicated in comparison to the Techserv system which I had been looking at previously. His replay was that his system was somewhat more complicated but there was no need to worry as it had an extensive help menu. Now that's great if you have one or two dedicated operators but in our general jobbing shop everyone needs to be able to set the machine up and operate it with the minimum of fuss and that is where (in my opinion) our system is more user friendly and we get great results with minimal issues.

    Following on from your explanation of your TrueHole technology and how it relies on changing the gasses automatically, does that mean that you can only have TrueHole capability if you have an Automatic gas console, even if you have the Hypertherm control system as I can't honestly remember ever seeing that mentioned when I was looking to purchase a system in the first place?




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    Default Re: F5 issues

    #threadjack lol I never mentioned true hole, I just want to cut with F5 and not have issues...



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    Default Re: F5 issues

    My experience with the F5 process is that it works as advertised, assuming you are following the specs in the operators manual, and you have the proper gas mix. If I was at your site I would install new consumables, ensure inlet gas pressures were proper (book specs). I would verify that all of my gas settings were correct according to the cut charts in the manual, and I would verify cut speed, pierce height cut height were set correctly. I would then verify that the physical cut height was correct. If it was not, I would adjust the arc voltage until the physical height was correct.....or do a test cut with the height control in manual mode and the torch height set with feeler gauges.

    The issues that would cause cuts as shown in your picture are:

    -cutting faster than book specs.
    - Cutting with too much torch to work height.
    - Incorrect consumables.
    -Incorrect amperage
    -incorrect cut and / or shield gas.

    Sorry the thread got hijacked!

    Best regards, Jim Colt Hypertherm




    Quote Originally Posted by Cmcclure View Post
    #threadjack lol I never mentioned true hole, I just want to cut with F5 and not have issues...




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    Default Re: F5 issues

    F5 issues-f5-gas-sheet-pdfF5 issues-f5-gas-sheet-back-side-pdfF5 issues-f5-gas-card-pdf

    I found this info on our bottle of F5, looks to be correct...



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