Problem Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

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Thread: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

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    Default Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Greetings all.

    Relative newb to machining here. I work on primarily aluminum block engines ands cylinder heads. Looking into a CNC Mill for block and head decking, tapping for thread inserts, PCD cylinder boring, and some part fab.

    I have a line on a Hurco Hawk 5M for cheap. The machine runs well, but currently the auto speed does not work so back gears for rigid tapping won't work until fixed. Down the line a control retrofit will be in order, but until then would like to get auto speed working.

    Anyone still have manuals for these or perhaps experienced this problem?

    Thanks,
    Jim

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by jcolley; 11-09-2017 at 10:19 AM.


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    By auto speed are you refering to the front dial on the head or do you have a VFD in the controld box on the side. Depending on what update the hawk has it will vary. The rigid tap is not like newer machines and while it does go off user inputs it has a optional screen to fine tune. I do have the manual for machine and wiring diagrams and recently tore down the x and y axis on mine to be rebuilt and assymbled. I can answer some questions but have found hurco itself is an amazing source of answers and very friendly.



    Quote Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
    Greetings all.

    Relative newb to machining here. I work on primarily aluminum block engines ands cylinder heads. Looking into a CNC Mill for block and head decking, tapping for thread inserts, PCD cylinder boring, and some part fab.

    I have a line on a Hurco Hawk 5M for cheap. The machine runs well, but currently the auto speed does not work so back gears for rigid tapping won't work until fixed. Down the line a control retrofit will be in order, but until then would like to get auto speed working.

    Anyone still have manuals for these or perhaps experienced this problem?

    Thanks,
    Jim




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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Went and looked at the machine today. For the exceptionally short money, I put a deposit on it and just have to figure out how to get it back to my shop.

    So, there's a work driven shaft that outputs on the right side of the head near the top. It has a coupling to what I think is a generator. I'm thinking maybe the spindle drives the worm and the generator pulses are read by the control board for speed feedback. Seems an odd way to get speed feedback so I may be wrong. Owner said there were some wires inside the head that came in contact with the worm and chafed insulation. My concern is that it may have shorted something back in the board reading it, so will look at it better once I get it moved.



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    There is a worm gear that comes on the side then 90 from the front speed gauge back onto the spindle shaft area from what i can see there are two discs on each end of the belt called vari discs i am guessing is what sends the feedback to the control. I will look more when I get a chance at the wiring diagram. There is a mod that hurco did called a euro head conversion that uses a vfd to control motor rpm and direction but i do not know what is involved to switch over. Where are you located? PM me and i can give some more info and such as ypu getbit home and get into the mchine.
    Quote Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
    Went and looked at the machine today. For the exceptionally short money, I put a deposit on it and just have to figure out how to get it back to my shop.

    So, there's a work driven shaft that outputs on the right side of the head near the top. It has a coupling to what I think is a generator. I'm thinking maybe the spindle drives the worm and the generator pulses are read by the control board for speed feedback. Seems an odd way to get speed feedback so I may be wrong. Owner said there were some wires inside the head that came in contact with the worm and chafed insulation. My concern is that it may have shorted something back in the board reading it, so will look at it better once I get it moved.




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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    The box on the right side of the head contains the motor that changes the speed through a worm/wheel in the front part of the head. The speed is changed by opening and closing the front set of pulleys with a chain around a small drum. The rear pulleys are kept in contact with the belt by a large spring on the motor shaft.
    The speed sensor is located in the front of the machine head under the rectangular cover with the speed change switch on it. What has probably happened is the switch has been damaged on its front face and it may need changing. It is a small 5mm PNP proximity switch.
    I designed and built the first Euro head conversion - one of my little claims to fame!



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    Awsome claim to fame! My euro head works great every day!thanks!
    Quote Originally Posted by bloke View Post
    The box on the right side of the head contains the motor that changes the speed through a worm/wheel in the front part of the head. The speed is changed by opening and closing the front set of pulleys with a chain around a small drum. The rear pulleys are kept in contact with the belt by a large spring on the motor shaft.
    The speed sensor is located in the front of the machine head under the rectangular cover with the speed change switch on it. What has probably happened is the switch has been damaged on its front face and it may need changing. It is a small 5mm PNP proximity switch.
    I designed and built the first Euro head conversion - one of my little claims to fame!




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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Quote Originally Posted by Sandvet03 View Post
    There is a worm gear that comes on the side then 90 from the front speed gauge back onto the spindle shaft area from what i can see there are two discs on each end of the belt called vari discs i am guessing is what sends the feedback to the control. I will look more when I get a chance at the wiring diagram. There is a mod that hurco did called a euro head conversion that uses a vfd to control motor rpm and direction but i do not know what is involved to switch over. Where are you located? PM me and i can give some more info and such as ypu getbit home and get into the mchine.
    I'm in Eliot, ME about an hour north of Boston. I'm looking for service manuals and wiring diagrams, but haven't found much. Anything is appreciated.

    Quote Originally Posted by bloke View Post
    The box on the right side of the head contains the motor that changes the speed through a worm/wheel in the front part of the head. The speed is changed by opening and closing the front set of pulleys with a chain around a small drum. The rear pulleys are kept in contact with the belt by a large spring on the motor shaft.
    The speed sensor is located in the front of the machine head under the rectangular cover with the speed change switch on it. What has probably happened is the switch has been damaged on its front face and it may need changing. It is a small 5mm PNP proximity switch.
    I designed and built the first Euro head conversion - one of my little claims to fame!
    Good info, will give me a better idea of what to look for. My background is mostly EE and very little machining. What all does the Euro head conversion entail? I have used a few VFDs in the past and running my old South Bend lathe on a VFD was great instead swapping pulleys. I imagine there's a bit that goes into it on a machine like this though.



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    The head was removed and stripped down. The motor was opened, had the shaft cut down and an HTD pulley with flanges was fitted. After re-building, it was balanced and had a fan fitted.
    The remainder of the old varispeed drive was removed (except from the front bottom pulley as it contained the brake) and the bearings were replaced for rubber sealed types instead of metal. Another HTD pulley with flanges was added to the front shaft along with a belt to match. The speed change motor was binned except the wiring to it - this was re-used to power the new fan and was re-connected in the cabinet.
    All holes in the head were filled and it was re-painted (all black over here so it could be identified easlily for future servicing purposes).
    The speed control was removed along with the old spindle contactors and a VFD fitted and wired to suit. A speed override pot was added to the control. The machine software was changed to the same as a Hawk 30 and had to be changed to V2 if it was on V1.



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Hi Jim,
    Out of curiosity, how much did you get the machine for?



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Quote Originally Posted by base1379 View Post
    Hi Jim,
    Out of curiosity, how much did you get the machine for?
    Picked it up for $4,000 and can't complain. Got it into my shop and in final position Thursday, setting up the phase converter and reassembling a few things this week.



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    Quote Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
    Picked it up for $4,000 and can't complain. Got it into my shop and in final position Thursday, setting up the phase converter and reassembling a few things this week.
    Thanks



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    So, finally getting a chance to work on this.

    The speed change motor was removed when I got the unit and a bolt put in the couple to allow manually changing speed.

    - Upon removing the worm gear and starting at wiring and schematics, it occurred to me the worm gear limit switches were improperly wired and would have shorted out on making contact.
    - Limit switch wiring corrected and continuity verified
    - Speed change motor and capacitor was bench tested and works
    - Installed speed change motor, bracket, housing
    - Manual control of speed change worked in decrease direction only.
    - Speed is now at high gear minimum RPM and will not increase manually or via Ultimax control
    - Upon looking at board, while operating speed change switch, relay and LED operate on decrease only, nothing on increase
    - Verified continuity on inputs to spindle control board for manual speed change. Proper signal to input of TB4 increase and decrease
    - verified output of U2 pins 6 and 7 go from 5V to 0.something volts when manual switch operated.
    - traced inputs to U1 pins 10 and 11, correct readings, same as outputs of U2 pins 6 and 7
    - lifted legs of U1 pins 1 and 2, outputs to hex buffer U7.
    - When U7 inputs 1 and 3 set to ground, relays and LEDs for increase and decrease operate as expected - eliminated U7, RL1, RL2, and relay NC contacts as faults
    - Measured outputs of U1 pins 1 and 2.
    - U1 Pin 2 goes from 5v to 0.53V when switch turned to decrease
    - U1 Pin 1 remains at 5V regardless of position of speed change switch
    - Replaced U1 with a brand new chip, identical response.

    Does anyone know if there is an internal interlock that prevents increaseing speed (manually or automatically) without spindle speed input? How can I measure spindle speed input? I do have a Picoscope, considering breaking it out and connecting to spindle board



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Threw the picoscope on the spindle proximity sensor. 24V supplied to sensor and a non-changing 24V output from it whether the spindle is rotating or not.

    I'm going to pull the sensor tomorrow and test. I have a spare sensor, but no idea if it's any good.



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Quote Originally Posted by bloke View Post
    The box on the right side of the head contains the motor that changes the speed through a worm/wheel in the front part of the head. The speed is changed by opening and closing the front set of pulleys with a chain around a small drum. The rear pulleys are kept in contact with the belt by a large spring on the motor shaft.
    The speed sensor is located in the front of the machine head under the rectangular cover with the speed change switch on it. What has probably happened is the switch has been damaged on its front face and it may need changing. It is a small 5mm PNP proximity switch.
    I designed and built the first Euro head conversion - one of my little claims to fame!
    I should have read this post closer 5 extra times.


    The proximity sensor had no pulse signal with spindle rotation. I removed it and tested it ok, then reinstalled it until it made contact with the speed sensing gear, then back it off a ways until it would just pick up. Is there a specified number of turns it should be backed off?

    Auto and manual speed control now working in high gear!!!

    Now...low gear...not so much. When I program a cycle with low RPM, it says verify low gear, press start and then waits...eventually timing out. Looking at schematics, there is a gear change sense optocoupler U10, but my unit does not have any wires connected on the terminal feeding it and no such proximity sensor I can find for that.

    Any thoughts? Wrong spindle board maybe?



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    When it runs low speed, the motor has to go backwards. Check the other contactor is being powered. It may have a bad coil.



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    Quote Originally Posted by bloke View Post
    When it runs low speed, the motor has to go backwards. Check the other contactor is being powered. It may have a bad coil.
    - Checked the reverse contactor and manual operation (pushing in the tab) starts motor in reverse.
    - Checked continuity of forward contact 'b' coil (NC) and good.
    - checked reverse contactor coil good
    - my unit has two smaller relays operated on 24v that operate the contactor coils. Both are good at 50 ohms and operate when voltage applied


    Traced the output from the CRP4 panel and no 24v signal being fed from it for reverse spindle operation. I don't seem to have a full schematic for the CRP4 board, but do for most others.

    The spindle schematic I do have seems to show the FWD and REV 24 signals are just passed through the CRP4 board from the IO control. I don't see anything resembling relays on the CRP4 for spindles, just coolant, etc.



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    Default Re: Hawk 5M Auto Speed problem

    I'm fairly certain I have isolated it to a bad LH1510 MOSFET relay on the IO board. The one for forward spindle control (U6) gives normal readings with a diode check and the reverse IC (U7) does not. The output of U6 and U7 on the IO board go out J1 pins 47 and 48 to the CRP4 board an d then pass on through CRP4 to the individual spindle contactor relays.

    Oddly, the 24V comes in on J1 pin 50 and feeds U6 and U7, then back out J1 again.



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    Quote Originally Posted by jcolley View Post
    I'm fairly certain I have isolated it to a bad LH1510 MOSFET relay on the IO board. The one for forward spindle control (U6) gives normal readings with a diode check and the reverse IC (U7) does not. The output of U6 and U7 on the IO board go out J1 pins 47 and 48 to the CRP4 board an d then pass on through CRP4 to the individual spindle contactor relays.

    Oddly, the 24V comes in on J1 pin 50 and feeds U6 and U7, then back out J1 again.


    Were you able to figure everything out with your hurco? I have the same machine and was wondering what the status of yours currently is.



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