Considering a Hardinge Conquest 42, advice?

[dahui]

Hey all,

I've been looking into a Conquest 42 with live tools and sub spindle. Any words of wisdom from owners? Is it still possible to get parts and service on this machine? I'm also assuming this lathe represents typcial hardinge quality, is that a safe assumption?

Also, in terms of hours, what is a reasonable amount and what is way too much? I found one that has "only 12,000 spindle hours!" That seems like a lot in general, but maybe reasonable for this vintage.

[wmpy]

We still have our 1989 Conquest 42 that we bought new as our first CNC machine. I'd say that it is a good all around, reliable machine. You can't take heavy cuts with it, but it is precise, versatile, and easy to use. You can absolutely still get parts and service for it. I guess I wouldn't pay too much attention to the hours if you know what you're looking at and can judge for yourself what condition the machine is in. I would do a bunch of tool indexes to watch and listen to how the turret lifts, indexes, and reseats itself. The turret indexing has been the only problematic thing for us. I think they straightened that out in the later machines, though. I don't own a machine with a subspindle, but I heard that some if not all of them were not servo controlled but rather controlled hydraulically like a tailstock. Again, I haven't used the subspindle, but it just seems less than desirable designed that way. If your budget allows, I would consider looking at the next generation Conquest T42. I believe this to be a better machine.

[dahui]

Hey thanks for the reply! The machine I'm looking at is a 1997. I'm having a hard time getting much good information, so you post is really helpful. I'll try and find out more about how the sub spindle is powered. Unfortunately the machine is at auction and I'm not sure that I can see it under power. Where the turret problems you encountered expensive to fix? Oh, also, in terms of "heavy cuts," could you be a little more specific? I've only ever run a Haas SL10 so I imagine this is about the same power class. Thanks again!

[wmpy]

So, if the machine is a 1997 I'm pretty sure that it's a Conquest T42 and not a Conquest 42. That's a good thing. The newer T42 is better all around in my opinion. Do you know the serial #? I believe that if it starts with SG, it's a T42; and if it starts with CS, it's a 42. Also, the 42 has a Fanuc 0t control and the T42 has an 18t control. The turret problems aren't that bad to fix, though probably a bit more expensive than if the machine were a Haas. As far as a heavy cut on a Conquest 42... off the top of my head, I'd say that a 0.080" depth of cut at 0.010" ipr at a 3" diameter in steel would be about maxing out the spindle load meter. I'm not familiar with the SL-10, so I can't compare. However, the turret and spindle power issues are not an issue on the T42.

Some other things to be aware of with the Conquests- They have integral collet closers built into the spindle. In other words, you don't need a collet chuck to put a 16C collet in the machine. It just fits into the spindle, yet you can still put a chuck or whatever will fit onto an A2-5 spindle nose. It's stronger, more accurate, and quicker for changeovers. You will like it.
Some of the machines are Big Bore machines which have 2" bar capacity and take 20C collets instead of the 16C. They have A2-6 spindle noses, I believe.
Also, some machines are "Super Precision" which means that they have resolution to 0.00001" along with a bunch of other changes to allow them to hold that accuracy.
Another option that goes along with the live tooling is that some of the machines have a full C-axis, while others just have spindle indexing, though I don't remember to what resolution. This may affect what you had intended to do with the machine
As far as live tooling goes, keep in mind that there are only four types of live holders: cross drilling, cross tapping, end drilling, and end tapping. The drilling holders I use to hold endmills sometimes, though it's not the greatest. They use DA collets which aren't very good for holding endmills securely.

That's all I can think of right now. If you have other questions, just ask away. And if you do get this machine, and it just so happens to come with loads of extra tooling that you don't need, please let me know. I'm looking for T42 tooling.

[dahui]

Hey thanks for all the info. The machine I'm looking at is a T42. I just assumed C axis was a full axis, so it's good to know it might just be indexing! That would have been a disappointment.

Do you have any idea which DA series the collets are? Or rather, what the max capacity is? I was hoping to do some light milling.

That also brings me to my next question...what is the method to upload programming to the machine?

[wmpy]

Collets are DA100 which is 9/16" max, I believe.

Uploading programs is done just like any other CNC, including your Haas.

[g-codeguy]

Subspindles can be hydraulic or servo. We have 2 with hydraulics. One is C-axis the other only has indexing (B-axis). We only cross drill with the B-axis lathe although I have milled a keyway slot with it. We have 3 with programmable subspindles, of which one is C-axis.

I like Hardinge lathes, but one problem with the smaller size 42 is lack of room between the spindles. You won't be doing any long parts, or using long insert/spade drills. It also severely limits live tooling for such things as face drilling. The live tooling holders for this use up a lot of the limited space.

Of the seven T42/42 lathes we have, only one had a problem with the turret. It was purchased at the same time as one of the other Hardinge lathes. It has been repaired twice. We tried going to water soluble coolant, but had to go back to oil. No problem since.

Definitely get an 18-T control if you plan on using Macros. Much more user friendly. No equal or bracket sign on the OT control pad. Can't use IF/THEN statements. Can't use brackets within the G71 cycle. Can use a macro within the G71, just not brackets. Can't search past some macro commands. Have to go into edit to do a block search with those macro commands.

I use to take .09 DOC in 52100 on a regular basis, but have had to lower that a bit as the material sometimes pushes back. Mostly it is determined by whether you are making one roughing pass, or several to a shoulder.

Some have absolute encoders, some incremental. Absolute encoders don't require homing upon start up. However, they do require resetting zero if the servo gets tripped. This is a matter of a few minutes for Z-axis, a bit longer on the X-axis.

Subspindles are easy to realign. Turrets are easy to realign on the non-live tooling models. I've never realigned one with live tooling, but imagine the addition of the live tooling probably makes it a bit harder. Not sure about that, tho. Only a guess on my part.

Can purchase a heavy duty belt for the subspindle. Definitely go this route when the one in the machine breaks, and it will eventually break. The heavy duty one lasts a lot longer.

[steer]

I have been reading some of the posts. I agree with most things said. The turret alignment on a live tooling machine is as easy to align as a non live tooling. At least on the early 90's models.
I am having a problem with the collet closer. Sometimes it closes normally, other times it real slow and not quick enough if the machine is in repeat mode. It leave more stock to face.
I have rebuilt these units before, replacing all the seals and O rings. I have done it to this machine recently. Just pulled it apart again and found the new quad ring broken again. This is after only 20-30 hours use.
Replaced the quad ring again and it still closing slow at times. I have checked the pressure, it correct. Have also replaced the collet pressure switch.
I am at a dead end.
Can probably switch collet closer with another machine to determine that it is the closer, but I am already confident it is.
Any one else have this problem?

[MadMax]

I've got a T42 purchased with over 50,000hrs on the cabinet counter. Spindle bearings still seem fine. It looks like the machine was running a live tool intensive job judging from the number of live tools that came with the machine and the amount of maintenance grease which was caked on the coolant tank (about 1/4" thick coating of red grease everywhere!). So far the live tool drive has needed some maintenance. New belt and bearings which were not very difficult for us to replace. There is no Hardinge tech rep in Canada so I've limped along with phone help and guile so far.

Luckily the live tool drive gear seems to be in fine condition. The bevel gears on the live tools are worn, but it looks like the main drive gear hasn't worn significantly. That's good because the live tool gears are still available and replaceable for $75 from Hardinge. They still have tool holders, and parts for the T42 which is good.

If your machine comes with live tools, that's good value there. I learned that Hardinge outsources their live tools from Eppinger which seems to be a pretty good make.

Steer: I just serviced my collet actuator a few months ago replacing seals and orings. I don't recall there being a quad ring. Which ring in your closer is the quad?

[steer]

MadMax, the quad ring is number 25 (0011151) on the collet closer schematic. Sits on the piston, part 40.
I have checked the housing no any scratches or nicks, very clean and smooth. Don't understand why it broke.

In Canada I believe you are fortunate to still be able to deal with Hardinge directly. In the states we have to go through Gosiger. No support at all.

[Nawrocki4Life]

Steer I'll tell you everything I know about that system. I am a service tech that works for a company that serviced Hardinge for over 75 years.

On that machine there is no prox switches that tell the machine the collet is open or closed. They use hydrolic/electronic pressure switches on the Hydrolic unit in back. And, you seem to know this but im just stating it.

Now a few things to consider knowing how its set up no.

1.) Collet closer opens or closes but machine doesnt know its state.
----- Bad pressure switch----

2.) Collet closer doesnt open or close but machine thinks it did.
------ bad collet closer-----

If the machine takes a while to actually open or close but machine doesnt alarm out, chances are that there is correct pressure being applied to the closer. Meaning there is a leak in on of the seals.

If the hydrolic vavle that switches closer states on the manifold gets sticky that could cause it too, but usually you would get c/c or c/o alarms. as there is a timer in the PLC looking for this status to change when asked to. Sound like the closer is leaking pressure somewhere. When you took it apart did you change all the o-rings and quad-rings? I believe there are 6 in total (3 on each) piolt/check valve. These need to be changes as well. I do like your idea of swapping closers between machines though.

When you take off and on the collet closer do you check for run out on it? When ever I take one off I check it before and then when I reinstall it I at least try to get it back if not better. This will affect Bearings on both the spindle and c/c. This statement doesnt really have any affect with the orginal issue we are talking about, but I just thought I would let you know that. Good luck! -----Rich----

[steer]

Nawrocki4Life, I have changed ALL the O rings and seals. Yes, the quad rings seems to take the most abuse and I did change them. Did NOT change any pilot/check valve. Where is that located?
We did have a c/o alarm a couple of times a few months ago. We dismissed them as the collet was closed, or so we thought.
With the collet removed the collet closer has a stroke of about 1/2". When I open/close/open/close manually it works fine, but at times it closes slower than others, sometimes double the time. Opening is always the same speed.
We did replace the collet pressure switch on the back of the manifold. Seems to click a bit more but working exactly the same.
Thanks for helping.