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    Default 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi All,

    I have a Hardinge CHNC I cnc lathe, my question is, Has anyone run one of these machines on a 3 phase converter?

    I tried using one of these on my Bridgeport Interact mill and had nothing but grief! kept blowing fuses and eventually damaging
    the spindle drive,

    So before I invest in a converter I wondered if anyone was running one of these lathes on this type of supply,

    Thanks for any help,

    Allen

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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    I don't have a Hardinge lathe but I built a 10hp rotary phase converter and run a large Allen Bradley three phase VFD to power a 7.5HP Komo Spindle and it works without issue.

    I know of lots of people who use rotary phase converters to run all kinds of CNC machines in their home shops.

    Russ



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman5 View Post
    Hi All,

    I have a Hardinge CHNC I cnc lathe, my question is, Has anyone run one of these machines on a 3 phase converter?

    I tried using one of these on my Bridgeport Interact mill and had nothing but grief! kept blowing fuses and eventually damaging
    the spindle drive,

    So before I invest in a converter I wondered if anyone was running one of these lathes on this type of supply,

    Thanks for any help,

    Allen
    My whole shop runs on converters. Used to run two Haas VF-2's and the CHNC-1 on one 20hp converter. Now I have a 20hp and a 30hp, but run all machines off of them.

    Mike

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Must be rotary type, not static.

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman5 View Post
    Hi All,

    I have a Hardinge CHNC I cnc lathe, my question is, Has anyone run one of these machines on a 3 phase converter?

    I tried using one of these on my Bridgeport Interact mill and had nothing but grief! kept blowing fuses and eventually damaging
    the spindle drive,

    So before I invest in a converter I wondered if anyone was running one of these lathes on this type of supply,

    Thanks for any help,

    Allen
    RPC are so inefficient, no matter what these users say, go with a Phase Perfect, they cost a lot more, but are very efficient and you get quality 3 Phase power

    Check your machine electrical spec's, you may be able to run it on 230v Single Phase

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Quote Originally Posted by CNCMAN172 View Post
    I don't have a Hardinge lathe but I built a 10hp rotary phase converter and run a large Allen Bradley three phase VFD to power a 7.5HP Komo Spindle and it works without issue.

    I know of lots of people who use rotary phase converters to run all kinds of CNC machines in their home shops.

    Russ
    Why would you waste your time, you can run the VFD you have on Single Phase

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi Russ,

    Thanks for your reply, sounds good to me, I just had such a bad experience with my last machine I'm kind of nervous I might spend a lot of money on something that won't work!

    Good to know you have had success!

    Thanks again,

    Allen



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi,

    Why rotary and not static?

    Allen.



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi,

    Thanks for your reply,

    You have lost me there? " you can run the VFD you have on Single Phase"? please explain,

    Allen



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi

    simple static converters uses a transformer to step up the 240V single phase mains up to 420V

    the 420 V is connected to two of the 3 phase output terminals
    the 3rd (wild leg) is connected via a capacitor to one of the other phase terminals

    at start up the capacitor is two or more capacitors in parallel to make up the value needed to start a 3 phase motor
    once up to speed the capacitance is reduced to match the value needed for the motor in use

    with complex unbalanced loads like your machine the phase and amplitude of the "phantom phase" or "wild leg" is going to be all over the place
    and the voltage between 2 of the phases can easily exceed the 420/440V expected blowing simiconductors in your spindle drive


    adding a 3 phase idler motor to make a rotrary converter helps as the motor acts as a motor driven generator
    stablising both the phase and amplitude of the 3 phase output
    its not perfect but a lot better than a static converter

    digital converters are basically a fixed frequency VFD drive !


    with VFD drives the mains is first rectified to give you a high voltage DC supply thats converterd to 3 sinusoidal AC outputs thats 120 degrees apart

    from a rectified 3 phase supply the DC will be about 600V DC and is then converted to 3 phase AC

    from a single phase the power available from DC supply is limited


    John

    Last edited by john-100; 02-12-2017 at 12:19 PM.


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi John,

    WOW! That is very informative, I have learnt something here, thank you!, at last someone has explained why my static converter gave me so much grief on my Bridgeport Interact, done exactly what you said, blew semiconductors in my spindle drive and lots of fuses!

    So in your opinion what is my best option?.....the rotary converter?

    Thanks for you help, most informative,

    Allen.



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman5 View Post
    Hi,

    Thanks for your reply,

    You have lost me there? " you can run the VFD you have on Single Phase"? please explain,

    Allen

    You sure can, there are thousands of people that run ( 3 ) Phase VFD Drives on Single Phase, there is a max of around 10 to 12 Hp depending on the load that is being drawn by the 3 Phase motor, and of cause what your input power supply is able to supply

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman5 View Post
    Hi John,

    WOW! That is very informative, I have learnt something here, thank you!, at last someone has explained why my static converter gave me so much grief on my Bridgeport Interact, done exactly what you said, blew semiconductors in my spindle drive and lots of fuses!

    So in your opinion what is my best option?.....the rotary converter?


    Thanks for you help, most informative,

    Allen.
    No depends a RPC can be just as bad as what you just experienced for a CNC machine, It depends how much power you need to run your machine, your Bridgeport will run on Single Phase nothing else needed

    Last edited by mactec54; 02-12-2017 at 05:57 PM.
    Mactec54


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    I've had no experience of using static or rotary converters but I'm sure I have read you may need to use one that's 50 to 100% over size to have enough in reserve for the start up surge of starting your machine


    the other point to watch out for is to connect the machines control to the two mains supply terminals from the converters 240 to 420V step up transformer and not the phantom / wild phase

    is there no recommendations from the machines manufacturer ?

    digital converters will have the advantage of having built in protection to protect its self and your machine


    John

    PS

    I forgot to add
    digital converters regulate the output voltage which will be an advantage if your on a rural supply that may not be a tightly controlled as most of the UK grid

    Last edited by john-100; 02-12-2017 at 04:10 PM. Reason: add PS


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi Everybody,

    Thank you all for your help and input, really appreciated. Ii don't know what I would do without the kind help from you, and I learn so much!

    Thanks!

    Allen,



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    I have a CHNC-1 and I run it off a Rotary Phase Converter. Bought the 15-hp control panel from WNY (they sell on ebay or go to phaseconverterusa.com) for around $230 USD and found a very nice 20-hp 3-phase motor from a local motor repair shop for $200 CDN. I think the scrap value of the copper is probably more than what I paid for the motor :-)

    Hardinge suggests the machine is tolerant to +/- 10% of the nameplate voltage, but I wouldn't take that chance and gave the machine exactly what it said on the nameplate. Ontario's hydro supply is supposedly 240V but whenever I measure I get 250V so I put a buck transformer before the control panel to drop the voltage so that it comes out exactly at 230V 3-ph. My CHNC-1 has operated perfectly for the past 6 years.



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Hi Torin,

    Good to speak to you again,

    I am currently looking at a couple of rotary phase converters on e-bay, the price of these units seems to have dropped a little making them more affordable.
    I admire the fact you built your own, something I have considered but just do not have the time and looking at all the parts required buying second hand seems to be a better option,

    I like your idea of the buck transformer, my one main concern is voltage stability especially after the trouble I had with my last machine running on a converter,
    I would be interested to know if Hardinge accepted there machines running on these converters?

    I have wired the control separately (240 Volt on the control transformer) to reduce any risk of spikes or overvoltage from the Rc, most people on here that use Rc,s
    seem to suggest this,

    At the moment I have a "2000- Emergency stop alarm" I am assuming the alarm is because the drives are not ready (no 3 phase to the m/c yet?)

    Allen



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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Quote Originally Posted by moonman5 View Post

    At the moment I have a "2000- Emergency stop alarm" I am assuming the alarm is because the drives are not ready (no 3 phase to the m/c yet?)

    Allen
    I didn't build the RPC myself - just wired it myself. The RPC control (if you can call it that) was purchased assembled from WNY. All one must do is connect the motor to one set of lugs, three-phase out to the lathe, and single phase to another pair of lugs. Easy.

    As for your alarm, this is what it shows in the Siemen's alarm list (see attached photo). As for interpretation, if you are supplying single phase to a three-phase device (and you haven't smoked your machine in the process), then yeah, I'd say the alarm is likely the result of your servos/amps not powered up or powered properly.


    Torin...

    Attached Thumbnails Attached Thumbnails 3 PHASE CONVERTER-img_2867-jpg  


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    You know, sometimes we make things so much more difficult than it needs to be.

    My first phase converter, built by me was quite simple. I got a 30 hp 3ph motor from a salvage yard and a single phase 1 hp from the same yard. I made a bracket that attached the 1hp directly to the 30hp with a coupler, nose to nose. Then wired it so that I could start the 1hp motor which started turning the 3ph motor. When up to speed, I killed the power to the 1hp and put the power to the 30hp. Once you get the motor turning you just shoot the juice to it. The 3ph motor will just sit and make noise if it only has two phases, because it needs a direction. Once it starts turning at a reasonable rate it does not need three phases, only two.

    I ran that set-up for many years to power my brand new VF-1, a CNC lathe and a 3ph mill and lathe for many years. Then I moved to a commercial unit with three phase power and sold the converter.

    All of the capacitors and such are just used to replace the third leg of power until the motor gets up to speed. They store current and then use it to replace that missing leg for the start After that, they are not needed.

    Mike

    Two Haas VF-2's, Haas HA5C, Haas HRT-9, Hardinge CHNC 1, Bother HS-300 Wire EDM, BobCAD V23, BobCAD V28


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    Default Re: 3 PHASE CONVERTER

    Mike,

    That's brilliant, I learn so much on this forum, So from what you are saying the capacitors are just there to help start the three phase motor? and if I am reading this right you did
    not need the capacitors because you kind of "bump started" the 3 phase motor with the single phase motor?.....that is brilliant!

    So (excuse my ignorance) how do you tap the 3 phase supply from the 3 phase motor,

    This really tempts me to have a go, I would like to see a more descriptive schematic to see how you done this,

    Allen,



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