First post - help with decision on machines

[dave design]

Hello all, longtime lurker finally going live...

I've been asked by a friend to help with deciding which Haas machine to acquire from another division of his company. There is also a chance he may bring me in as a consultant to help with setting up the shop and making parts. I've been out of work for more than a year, so this would be good. It's an in-house R&D shop for a medical device company, but also does work occasionally for manufacturing. It's their first cnc.

A little background. I've been doing mechanical design, manual and cnc machining for about 30 years. My most recent job was for a golf manufacturer who is using a 5 axis mill to manufacture custom golf clubs. Before that, I was working for that same medical company as a Solidworks jock, and before that I had my own business manufacturing an accessory case for Palm PDAs (remember pdas?, haa!).

Our choice is between 2 machines, a ~2001 VF-0 and a ~2004 VF-1.
The VF-0 has a Haas T5C tilting rotary mounted to the table, and has a 15,000 rpm CAT40 spindle, but no spindle chiller. The rotary is an add on, not integrated like the newer Haas trunion machines. It has about 1000 cutting hours on it. The VF-1 has a 30,000 rpm 30 taper spindle and does have a chiller. It has the newer control with lcd monitor, the VF-0 has a crt. The VF-1 machine has more time on it, around 3500 hrs. Both machines look to be in nearly perfect shape. We can't get both machines, and we can't swap any parts between them. The VF-0 with the tilting rotary would be nice for some of the tricky small parts that will go in a 5C collet, but there is a good chance we'll have to do bigger 3 axis stuff too, like fairly complex aluminum castings that will barely fit on the table. The rotary can be removed, but it's probably a day to R&R, not like swapping vises. The VF-1 with the bazillion rpm spindle worries me a little bit. I know the Japanese machines like the Mycenter-0 with a 30 taper spindle will cut stainless all day long, but I have no experience with any Haas machines with >10k spindles. The golf guy's Haas machines cut steel 2 shifts for 10 years with no problems before he bought the Mazak Variaxis, but his machines were all 10 krpm or less.

I'm kind of stumped with this one, I know how handy 5 sided machining is, but the VF-0 isn't really a dedicated 5 axis machine. It has room for a vise next to the rotary, but only just. We would also need a 5 axis capable CAM program and post. The 30k machine has more hours on it, and has had a spindle replaced, so I'm wondering if this is an every 2500 hour exercise. Any and all input welcomed, especially on control differences, experience with any of the Haas's high speed spindle options, or anything else you think is relevant.

Many thanks,

Dave

[underthetire]

15K MUST have a chiller at minimum. Either machine will be a little weak for stainless, at least bigger cuts with that RPM. The newer Haas machines are a lot nicer than the old ones IMO. I'd keep looking. Find a 8 or 10K VF1 or VF2. And if you are going lower end machine, for sure stick with HAAS!

[dave design]

Originally Posted by underthetire 15K MUST have a chiller at minimum. Either machine will be a little weak for stainless, at least bigger cuts with that RPM. The newer Haas machines are a lot nicer than the old ones IMO. I'd keep looking. Find a 8 or 10K VF1 or VF2. And if you are going lower end machine, for sure stick with HAAS!

Thanks for the info. Wish we could shop around, but unfortunately we only have the choice of these two mills because they are being transfered from another group within the same company. Hopefully I won't get too many 304 parts...

[underthetire]

Understood-completely. Stay away from the 30K spindle IMO. Won't tap worth a dam.

[mls]

I would get the 15k I think it would be a beter all around machine than the 30k machine.
Good luck Mike

[Delw]

I thought the 15k spindle had Ceramic bearings? Haas told me to stay away from that unless I was taking very light cuts. they wouldnt reccomend it for job shop work to me and told me to get 12k or less rpms.

Ceramic bearings are nice but if you do any NORMAL cutting on stainless and you risk wiping out your spindle. at least this is the way I understood it from Haas.

Delw

[dave design]

Originally Posted by Delw I thought the 15k spindle had Ceramic bearings? Haas told me to stay away from that unless I was taking very light cuts. they wouldnt reccomend it for job shop work to me and told me to get 12k or less rpms. Ceramic bearings are nice but if you do any NORMAL cutting on stainless and you risk wiping out your spindle. at least this is the way I understood it from Haas. Delw

It could well have ceramic bearings, but I suppose the 30krpm VF-1 machine does too. Since this will mostly be used for R&D stuff, I hope it will be ok. The machinist that worked on these said he never ran them at the redline or beat the machines, and looking at them and the kind of work they did, I believe him. They are surplussing the machines because they are going from a 2000+ sq ft shop down to 500', and there is no room for a half a dozen Haas mills plus all the manual equipment.

I did a little more research on Haas's website, and sure enough, the 30k spindle option info says "rigid tapping not available". That's a big bummer, for sure.

[JohnJW]

I think I've seen some Japanese machines with 20K or 30K spindles for cutting steel. Do most 20K+ spindles have ceramic bearings? and are most ceramic bearing too fragile to cut steel?

I like Haas but am wondering what are the differences in spindle constructions between the more expensive and the less expensive machines?

thanks,

[dave design]

Originally Posted by JohnJW I think I've seen some Japanese machines with 20K or 30K spindles for cutting steel. Do most 20K+ spindles have ceramic bearings? and are most ceramic bearing too fragile to cut steel? I like Haas but am wondering what are the differences in spindle constructions between the more expensive and the less expensive machines? thanks,

Well, I hope the Haas guys got it right, cause it looks like we are getting the 30k machine after all. It was a tough decision, but in the end, the usable work envelope won out over the 5 axis capability. We considered creating a crash cart to easily load the rotary in and out, but logistically it would just not work with the myriad of cables and tramming it in and all. We also have no budget for a 5 axis CAM package. And I'm sure as soon as I spent half a day setting up the machine with the rotary, some engineer would walk in the door with a rush job that required removing it. I really wanted both machines!

My experience with ceramic bearings in Japanese machines also indicates they can cut steel with no problems. From discussions with bearing guys, I think anything 15k and above probably uses ceramic hybrid (ceramic balls, steel race). Perhaps full ceramic bearings are used too with faster spindles. I suspect Haas is doing it right, they don't want to pay for warranty repairs any more than Matsuura.

Thanks to everyone who responded, now you can be the first to rip on me when I post "Help, Haas 30k spindle making noise!".

Dave

[underthetire]

Originally Posted by Delw I thought the 15k spindle had Ceramic bearings? Haas told me to stay away from that unless I was taking very light cuts. they wouldnt reccomend it for job shop work to me and told me to get 12k or less rpms. Ceramic bearings are nice but if you do any NORMAL cutting on stainless and you risk wiping out your spindle. at least this is the way I understood it from Haas. Delw

When you get that high in the RPM band, steel bearings just won't hold up. You can cut stainless with ceramic, but it requires high feed/rpm small cuts and a very ridged machine. One bump and they are done. The other high speed spindles i've seen are magnetic spindles, those are for super high RPM. 30K is really not much use in most job shops IMO, unless you have dedicated parts that can use them. The die mold shops love the high RPM. BTW, you need a lot of control power to use it in 3D.

[Delw]

UNderthetire,
Haas was telling me about the 15k spindle and ceramic bearings that when on interuped cuts they can tend to wipe out. the one guy was saying that a 3-4" face mill htting a corner or breaking a insert can cause it also even at low rpms.

I would love to see how fast the control runs on a 30k spindle that would be pretty wild to watch it feeding at over 300-400 IPM.

[dave design]

Originally Posted by Delw UNderthetire, Haas was telling me about the 15k spindle and ceramic bearings that when on interuped cuts they can tend to wipe out. the one guy was saying that a 3-4" face mill htting a corner or breaking a insert can cause it also even at low rpms. I would love to see how fast the control runs on a 30k spindle that would be pretty wild to watch it feeding at over 300-400 IPM.

I'm hoping to see this thing rip through some big 3d files too. It's still unclear if it has the high speed machining option, though I can't imagine that it doesn't. I thought the newer Haas mills plastered the options on the front of the machine, this one just says "30,000 rpm".

Between HR and the corporate suits, I don't know if I'll ever be running the thing though. Ah, life as an independent contractor...