Which Haas machine to buy?

[Lowermillin]

Hello,

I've been researching haas vmc's, and I'm curious if you guys could give me some perspective on which machine I would use to make this part -



Its an AR15 Lower

I'd like for the machine to be able to mill that, and eventually ar15 uppers as well as mounting rails (like, rails and mounts for scopes, etc)

These parts are generally all made from aluminum

Currently, I'm thinking a VF-2SS

I figure I can get a nice used one for 40 or 50k

is there a better options from haas? Would I be better of with a VF-3? I have room for any of the haas models, so space is not an issue.

[Delw]

a vf3 is better as you will need a 4th axis, with the right fixture on a ht210 you can do a bunch of parts 3 sides at the same time. you can do it on a vf2ss as well but you have ot be a little more cautious.

with a vf2 running a tombstone fixture horzontially there is very little clearance so you need to be careful zero returning.
I am just finding that out
while you have 20inchs of travel deduct 3.5" for the tool changer so thats 16.5, the 210 runs 9" tall if I remember correctly now you have 7.5 inchs of clearance. add a short tool holder its 1.5" guage length that leaves you 5" of clearance. then add a tool or drill ( I think your going to run a 3-4" long endmill ?

with a vf3ss you have more room to move before tool changes. the 4th axis will sit 10inch more to the right than the vf2 when at home.

The ss machines are faster than crap and pretty darn strong, I am very impressed with our vf2ss.

I've run the parts your talking about years ago, uses some very long tools, if you do it correctly and set it up right you can get alot of parts on a fixture doing 3 sides and do the hog out operations.

if your just doing a few, vise's and 5 operations work just as good
we did them on a 40x20 fadal with a 4th and a special fixture.

[lkenney]

A shop near us is using a horitzontal with a pallet pool to run 24/7 on these parts. Four lowers to a side 16 to a tombstone. When we looked at the prospect of building these, that seem to be the best way to go but we did not have room for one. You will want the 15K rpm and balanced tooling.

Lowell

[Lowermillin]

Guys, I REALLY appreciate the input.

That helps so much - is there anyway you could be more specific to the machining process? What types of bits/tooling did you use? If you can't remember, what would you use? What types of vices? You mentioned a tombstone, what other vices should I start looking into?

So, should I be looking at a HMC not a VMC? Space isn't really an issue as the building this will be going in will be built to suit.

What HMC Hass model would work best for me? I'm planning on going into full on production, But this machine will be used for other things than milling just the lower...

[JohnJW]

You can take a look at

http://www.cncguns.com

They have step by step procedure for milling a complete AR lower along with a few other things. How long do you think this AR buying frenzy will go on?

[Delw]

Originally Posted by Lowermillin Guys, I REALLY appreciate the input. That helps so much - is there anyway you could be more specific to the machining process? What types of bits/tooling did you use? If you can't remember, what would you use? What types of vices? You mentioned a tombstone, what other vices should I start looking into? So, should I be looking at a HMC not a VMC? Space isn't really an issue as the building this will be going in will be built to suit. What HMC Hass model would work best for me? I'm planning on going into full on production, But this machine will be used for other things than milling just the lower...

Like Lowell said if your going full production you get a horizontal those machines fly especially with a pallet changer on them, it would be pretty much lights out, however I dotn think your going to find one for 40-50k, maybe a decent one for around 100k thats used. then you have tooling figure 10-20% of the cost of the machine, also programming software another 5-15 k

the tombstone I am talking about is for a vmc mounted on a rotary table, Geoff has some good pics on how they look.

I have all the prints and operation sheets but its propriatory so I can't let it out.

the thing you need to look at are you going to make 20-100 a month or 10,000 a month.?

do you have a machining background? Only reason I ask is alot of guys are seeing that gun parts are big business right now, they are spending all there money on machines taking out loans etc and have never ran a machine. let alone made a part.
if thats the case buy a small VMC and if it works out for you then work your way up to a bigger faster machine. tooling would be much cheaper also.

you may even want to sub the parts out until you get enough orders to were you can make them in house, Ie test the market so to speak before spending a ton of money.

Delw

[KevinWilkins]

Originally Posted by Delw do you have a machining background? Only reason I ask is alot of guys are seeing that gun parts are big business right now, they are spending all there money on machines taking out loans etc and have never ran a machine. let alone made a part. Delw

I've noticed this too – gotta wonder about the quality of the parts coming out of some of these shops.

[MikeOD]

I don't want to sound rude...but I think your first investment should be a manufacturing engineer with a lot of machine shop experience. Your second investment should be a few Haas's

[lkenney]

This is not a bad goal to have and there are people making money building these but lay your foundation on solid rock first.

Before we go into who and what need to be hired, bought etc. The first thing you must do is get set your company set up as an LLC or other formal organization reconized by the local, state and fed gov't, your accountant and attorney will help you get this done right, don't do it without them.

Then apply and obtain your FFL 07 manufacturing license and any local licenses and permits. The local Law Enforcement Chief, often the county Sheriff must sign off on the licenses as well. Now you also have to pay an annual tax of at least $2,500 bucks to the State department whether you export or not. Only after you have cleared these hurdles should you consider buying any machinery leasing space and hiring workers. You are also opening your business and sometimes personal records, & home to inspection by the BATF. You need to establish a relationship in that office too. The AR lower is the firearm as far as the ATF is concerned. There isw a tax on every firearm built paid by the manufacturer before it can be sold.

You should also make sure you have connection with several suppliers of aluminum and that they will put you into some sort of priority as to when you can get metal if things tighten up further. It is easier to get metal if you can contract for a given amount per month. Tons are easier to buy than pounds on a tight market.

You know that the political party in power right now wants to outlaw these weapons and will try to do so as fast as they can. Will that take them 6 months, a year, 2 years, maybe never but who knows. It is what is driving the sales right now but that could end very quickly or if the economy get worse and people have to start selling their stockpile to eat.

Nobody want s to see anyone fail at a machining effort. Then remarks here are all good information to reflect on. Good Luck.

Lowell

[Delw]

Lkenny
You brought up a very very good point about he BAFT licence, I would assume any one wanting to make lowers would already have that info and be legal in order to do so.

cause if you can't get the licence you can't make the lowers and sell them. then getting all that machinery and tooling set up to do so and then trying to get your licence only to be told "Request Denied" your pretty much done.

Good aditional info.
Delw

[tobyaxis]

Personally I'll be making a few things here and there for myself, but won't sell anything without a license.

This is the base and close to what I am working on now.

[Delw]

toby
those run really good and fast in a hitachi seiki with live tooling. burrs get nasty

Friend of mine ran them that way for ever, some of the best bolts I have ever seen made.