Geoff, Donkey , Toby Questions

[Delw]

I am purchasing a haas vf2ss, one reason due to the abuse that Geoff puts them through I am pretty impressed by how haas has been holding up.

I have some questions that if you have time I would like your opinions.

options you like and dont like. its a jobshop so I pretty much see everything everyday.Most if not all my programming is done via cad-cam( which I am also going to upgrade here in the next few weeks) I run smartcam advanced milling and going to upgrade to either the new version of freeform or I am going to take a weird step and just get mastercam x3, only reason due to local class's for employees are avail for mastercam.


I never owned a haas, I always owned Hitachi seike acrolocs fadals supermax's etc etc
I've programmed pretty much everything with the exception of a haas, so I have zero knowledge but been reading and shouldnt be that bad of a learning curve. Again one reason for the decision on the haas was due to local training also.

The machine is a new machine with the following options already installed.

Haas VF-2SS Vertical Machining Center 12,000rpm spindle

Chip Auger System
Programmable Coolant Nozzle
High Intensity Lighting
16 Megabyte Program Memory
Early Power Detection Module
4th- Axis Dr. & Wiring
High Speed Machining (look Ahead)
Intuitive Programming System
Haas Wireless Probing System
Remote Jog Handle

It has on it right as we speak a full 5th trunion and table as it was run in a demo a few weeks ago, Unfortunatly/fortunately when we went and looked at it My wife said she had to have the 5th axis, its another 27k

I got work for the 5th but its positioning and I can do with out it just using the 4th and a extra operation, but would be nice to have the option just to have the option when something arises.

5th axis, whats the drawback on having on a small machine like the vf2ss?

forsure
the 4th we are gettng the 210 rotary with the trunion table fixture, is there any drawbacks with that on this machine? I was going to go with the 160? 6" one but figured it might not work as good.

Just undecided on the 5th axis, but sence its is alreeady installed its pretty tempting.

Iv'e tried to understand the control options for the haas but the descriptions are pretty limited, so I don't knwo what else is worth it.


How does the Haas cut inconel and SS, compared to a fadal with box ways?
according to the techs at Haas the 12k spindle wont be damaged by cutting nickle based alloys like the 15k spindle one, something to do with bearings ?

and what is this option in laymens terms?
Intuitive Programming System


Programming,
what is the real difference between haas and fadal cn88 format 1. I have to write code generators and from what I read some of the coding is a tad different between the 2.


Anything else anyone can reccommend, would be nice also

its suppose to be delivered this week if I accept the terms of the contract, we got it I just havent seen the final numbers in writing yet. plus I am still toying with the 5th axis deal.

Thanks
Delw

[swain]

I can't answer all of them...but here are a few answers worth my 2 cents..

The 12 k spindle still has metal bearings...I think the 15 k has ceramic.

I have the 4th 210 with tailstock and it has worked flawlessly for many years.

Two options i didn't see you list...ridgid tapping...highly recommend this
The other is a little less used...rotation and scaling. I can count the times i have used it on one hand...but it saved a TON of reprogramming.
Both of these are software options and would only need a number from haas to enable them.

Sounds like a sweet machine....Good LUck with it...

[Delw]

You about gave me a stroke with the rigid tapping, it comes standard, I coudlnt live with out it either.

STANDARD MACHINE FEATURES, VF-2SS
• XYZ travels 30" x 16" x 20" (762 mm x 406 mm x 508 mm)
• 12,000 rpm Inline Direct-Drive Spindle • Rigid Tapping
• 30-hp (22 kW) Vector Dual Drive (Y-Delta) • Automatic Lubrication System
• High-Speed, 24+1 Side-Mount Tool Changer • CT 40-Taper Spindle
• 1400 ipm (35.6 m/min) Rapids • 5 Spare M-Functions
• Rugged Cast-Iron Construction • Coolant Washdown Kit
• Flood Coolant System • Compact Footprint
• Tool Release Button • Spindle Air Blast
• Tool Load Monitoring • 1-Year Parts and Labor Warranty
 USB port
Other Features Include:
• Free-flow enclosure design • Direct-coupled, brushless servo motors
• Triangulated wide-stance castings • Easy-access, roll-out coolant tank
• Heavy-duty sheetmetal enclosure • High-capacity cartridge spindle



thats what the tech said was metal vs ceramic, I just couldnt remember if the 12k was ceramic thanks

Scaling and rotation I will look into those, thanks

[HelicopterJohn]

I could be wrong but I believe you get the rotation and scaling option when you purchase the Wireless Probe. Hope you get the Renishaw as it has been a good unit for a newbie like me.

Good luck with your new machine.

John

[Geof]

Whadda ya mean; ABUSE!!!!! I work my machines hard I will have you know, I don't abuse them.

Now after having indignantly responded to your first sentence I will read the rest of the post.

Okay read it:

Intuitive programming system? In my humble (ha ha) opinion hand holding for wimps; seriously if you are using CAM you don't need it.

Yes get rigid tapping.

Remote jog?? The machine is not really big enough to worry but if it part of a value optiuon package so be it.

5th for 27k seems a bit expensive if you don't really need it.

160 is way too small; 210 fits in very nicely.

Now it is someone else's turn.

[Delw]

Geof, you know what I mean its all good, just seeing a flame thrower on a cnc machine makes me squimish.



That Intuitive programming system
what is it anyone have a detailed description on it?


John
the machine already had the haas probe on it, I never used a probe on any machines other than a cmm and the qsetters on the hitachis.
whats the difference between the 2?
all these new options and technology kinda makes me feel old LOL

[Delw]

I found the description here,

http://www.haascnc.com/i-prog_sys.asp

Wow kinda like hiring a baby sitter with out boobs, guess that one is going bye bye

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Delw Geof, you know what I mean its all good, just seeing a flame thrower on a cnc machine makes me squimish......

Sissy.

But I know the feeling. However, the machine is not getting worked particularly hard doing that sort of thing; actually it can be experiencing lower loads than occur when it is running slower under coolant.

The way wipers getting scorched with red hot chips is another matter and if I was doing thsat sort of thing constantly something would have to be done to protect them.

[Donkey Hotey]

I'd want to add the Renishaw (not Marposs) probing. Not only does it buy you the probe and toolsetter (big time savers in my opinion) but the option includes macros, coordinate rotation & scaling and VQC. At the end of the day, the probing costs you about $1000 above the cost of those options.

IPS (Intuitive Programming System) is a waste of time on the mill but useful on the lathe. Now you know that for future reference. With that said, it may also be included with the probing option.

4th & 5th? I understand that the cost of the 5th axis wiring has come wayyy down so it might be worth considering now. The $27K includes the trunnion, right? I think the 5th axis option is cheaper than it used to be.

Are you really sure you want the SS model? You mentioned nickel alloys. When I optioned my VF-2, I went with the 10K spindle and two-speed gearbox. I too, did not know everything I was ever going to do with it, so I picked that option as the best, middle ground. I'd have to be staring at a lot of aluminum work or steels where I was going to be doing high speed machining instead of conventional methods to pick the 12K spindle over the gearbox option.

And what's the role of this machine? A do-everything? Another production workhorse? Geof has posted many times that he gets a lot of throughput out of multiple Super Minimills in the same space. It's hard to argue with his logic if that's your need and your parts will fit.

The VF-2 is a great envelope and I know you're looking at a particular machine, but have you also given some consideration to the VF-2YT (4 more inches Y travel)? Or considered moving up to the next size machine (VF-3,4,5)? I find the 16" Y travel to be good for things that fit in a vise but I've already had to reposition work to get it inside that envelope when the part dimensions got much over a foot.

A VF-5, Cat40, 20HP machine would give you enough room to put a first op on one side of the table and the trunnion on the other side for subsequent ops. The VF-3, 4 would provide the same but a bit less Z travel.

Just asking the questions, so we know you've thought of all the options.

[Delw]

we get alot of brass copper alum 303ss 304ss work, mostly lower end (hardness) aerospace materials. with very few being nickle based alloys, However I love to cut 316, tit and inconel and never turn down work for it. part size ranges from mostly small stuff with 5" wide and long 4" thick being the most, very rarely so I get something longer than 5" lots of hog outs in small 3x5x3.5 boxs alum and some 303 hogouts 304 is generally slotting and hole drilling hexing, thread milling etc. the inconel is pretty much .3/4 T 90º fittings requiring a 4th axis, basically starts out in a 4" dia slug

Just wanted to make sure it would cut it, I know the older haas machines didnt fare to well, older meaning prior 2000 as one of my customers would send it to me cause he couldnt cut it on his vf3's and I could on my fadal.

I like fadal as I know a box way machine is pretty darn rigid, with the exception of the hitachi's I only ran box way machines. thats one of my concerns, they say and what I have read is that Haas has come a long way in the design and rigidity of the machine using the lm style guides instead of box ways.

the 5th was with the trunion and chuck wiring and drives basically the whole darn set up for 27k. it would come in I could put a part on it hit the button and be running. one nice thing about the 5th axis is that I could pretty much make a complete box on all sides running threads boring hogout etc, but would only be able to do one part at a time but it would be done complete,were as on the fadal I run 6 at a time in 4 operations, I wanted to run a program for it to see if it would be faster one at a time or like I am doing currently just havent had time yet.


For big stuff I have the 96 40x20 fadal with all the options, I was looking into the vf3 but they didnt have one avail. and the deals on those werent as good as I got on this one.. this one is sitting on the floor waiting for me to say ok bring it.
I got a pretty good deal on the machine and the options so thats kinda another reason I am grabbing it as is, I will just get the programming option taken off


Almost bought used but to be honest I need a tax writeoff and hadnt boughten a piece of machinery in a while. plus the fact that its a new machine with a warrenty and frankly I dont have time for someone else problems., my fadal wasnt as good as it was suppose to be meaning they didnt rebuild it like I was told and paid for.

[Donkey Hotey]

Well, it sounds like you thought through it. You could still get the probing option added at the package price and get the coordinate rotation & scaling, etc, etc, added in. It is such a time saver, I don't know how others get along without it. Heck, I liked it some much on my mill that I'm in the middle of installing a tool presetter on my TL-1.

Setting a work offset in the center of a bore is as simple as dropping the probe in the middle, calling up the proper program and running it; G54 is in the center. Want to use the center of a cylindrical boss? Same thing. Center of a block? Ditto.

Even standard vise jobs: clamp a 123 block in the vise, up against the stop, probe the corner and you're off to the races. No tool touch-offs either because everything matches and is coordinated in your offset tables.

I think there was one guy who posted on here that they bought probing but didn't like it. Then again, he kept fighting it by trying to only use the probe but not the presetter. That caused them all kinds of headaches (self inflicted). Other than that guy, everybody who has bought the Renishaw probing has fallen in love with it.

Give it some strong consideration. If it's a money thing, I'd drop High Speed Machining for now, in order to get the probe. A credit card can turn HSM back on in the future (if you even need it).

[Delw]

The haas probing that it comes with doesnt it have a prob?

Thats were I am lost, I thought it all came with that stuff(probe)?.
this is the option thats already on it
Haas Wireless Probing System

I guess I dont understand what the difference is between the 2 options they have.

http://www.ipnews.com/archives/westec/mar08/marposs.htm

I will give it some consideration, I wil do a search on the renishaw one.