What would you get instead of a Haas?

[SRT Mike]

I figured this would get a pretty decent response here, and the answer may infact be "get the Haas" (although I personally don't think it is).

I machine 99.9% 6061 aluminum, mostly smallish sized parts, and right now on my 40x20 VMC w/6k spindle I have fixtures that hold 12+ parts and my cycle time will be maybe 2 hours to do them all. I need to make them quicker, because I need to make more.

I'd like to get a new mill, something with a fast (minimum 12k, better 15k) spindle, 40-tool capacity, a chip conveyor/auger, something that I can drip feed quickly for 3d surfacing toolpaths. It seems there are tons of lower end machines like Milltronics, Akira Seiki, Mighty Viper, and the rest. But they don't seem to come with the spindle speed I want.

I am looking at Mazak and Okuma, and leaning towards Okuma. I would have liked to go with a Haas VF3-SS, but after reading the thread where the guy was getting bad surface finish, I don't think I'd ever buy a Haas, especially since their answer was "we'll change your ballscrews" (a ridiculous and unacceptable answer, IMO). I think I'd have this machine for 10 years, and it seems the Okuma MC-V4020 isn't really *that* much over a similarly equipped Haas, maybe $20k... That's $2000/yr over 10 years or about $40 a week... which seems like a small price to pay for what seems like a big difference in quality.

the thing is, all my parts get either polished or chromed or anodized.. the better they come off the machine, the less I spend on finishing. But I'm not willing to do tons of secondary ops to cover for flaws in the machine itself. I want to be able to run hard and fast, and get an excellent finish.




Other than Okuma and Mazak, I am not sure if there is another machine that fits the bill, is there? Mori is way more money, and the specialty machines like DMG, Makino, Matsuura are major $$ for features I don't really need. I'm not looking for a mold machine, just a fast SOB that will let me run it 8-10 hours a day, 5-6 days a week, most of that being at the extreme upper end of it's spindle speed, and do it year after year with minimum service needed and while putting an excellent finish on my parts.


Or, should I be considering Haas? I just can't see spending that much on a machine that has noticeable flaws and hearing that I'm expecting too much from the machine... not for a $40/week difference in price.


Who runs your Haas' hard and fast for production work all day, every day? And for those proponents of a Haas for this type of work, what do you say about the design problems uncovered in the SS machine that guy had? I talked to a guy with an '08 who said the same, and a local guy has a VF2-SS and had the same problem as well.

This isn't intended to be a bash-haas post, this is what's on my mind so I'm hoping someone can speak to these concerns. I'm going to Eastec in several weeks, planning to decide after I see some machines and talk to some reps.

[tobyaxis]

Look at Bridgeport. No not the Knee mill your used to seeing but one of these. The price is fair and I beat the living bearings out of one for two straight years cutting everything from Aluminum 6061 to 7075, 303, 316, 416, and even 321 SS.

The one I used was a XV710 small and a slow tool changer but rigid and fast Machining. Average feeds and speeds in Aluminum 6061 were 8000 RPM @ 400 IPM 3/4 dia carbide 3 flute 40 degree helix .3 DOC and .3 to .6 step over. As a note you might have to use the Al-Nano G5.1 to hit these feed rates but it is way cool.

If you want I have a video I can send you of a part I did in the 4th axis. Just PM me your work address. LOL there is some bad language or I would have posted it.

ZERO PROBLEMS!!!!

But remember that is only two years not ten.

check them out
http://www.bpt.com/index.asp?pageID=64&cID=36

Cheers!!!

[SRT Mike]

I didn't even think about Bridgeport - stupid me, I had one of their machines before, too... wow, looks like they've come a long way since I had one.

That XR1000 looks like a nice machine.

Do you have any comments on price? I know I'd need to contact a dealer for specifics, but what sort of ballpark price are they asking for those XR machines? I hate to call the dealer early, because these people just start showing up at my shop uninvited, and it's impossible to get any info without giving you name, address, blood type, SSN, etc

I'd love to check out that video, can you send to mwbhts at gmail dot com... I'll cover my ears when the swearing starts

[Andre' B]

I have know idea what the prices on these mills are, likly well up the scale.
But their control looks really interesting for running large programs.
http://www.creat.com/

[Geof]

I run Haas machines fairly hard and fast and I can say they are not as rigid as some other machines; this is based on seeing pictures of parts from other machines not from actually running them.

I am not sure which "that guy" you are referring too but if it is the one with the 'coining marks' I think these arise from the head nodding as the column and probably the entire structure of the machine flexes. I have parts that are done on a SuperMiniMill or a VF2 under identical conditions and the 'coining' from the Super is much more pronounced than from the VF2. If the feeds are backed way off this coining practically dissappears on the VF2.

I have come to the conclusion that if you simply cannot tolerate minor surface defects such as this and if you want to drive your machine really fast three shifts a day then you more or less have to pay the extra money for a heftier machine. However, if you can accept what are really cosmetic deficiencies in surface appearance and you are not running three shifts then the Haas is the best value for money.

[Kevin Taylor]

Geof is't some of the coining from removing stress in the material I'v found if I want a smothe part when I remove a large amount of material I have to go over it with a small amount of -Z cut after roughing and that stop's a lot of the coining the part curl's up toward the spindel as you remove chip's Kevin

[Geof]

Could be some comes from that but even on parts where we take a final skim of .01" or something small like that we can see the effect. Actually sometimes it is more pronounced because we often bump the feed up on the final skim.

In addition it depends which axis is accelerating with the Y axis creating more marks than the X. That seems logical to me because the Y axis accelerating is going to put more shock in the direction the head sticks out.

It is impossible to feel the marks and I guess they could be polished out with very little effort. After anodizing it is practically impossible to see them; we don't worry about it.

Look at this picture. You can see it best on the parts at the llower left:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/attach...4&d=1183321427

This thread describes and extreme example not really relevant because it is a gantry machine:

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=22589

[tobyaxis]

Originally Posted by SRT Mike I didn't even think about Bridgeport - stupid me, I had one of their machines before, too... wow, looks like they've come a long way since I had one. That XR1000 looks like a nice machine. Do you have any comments on price? I know I'd need to contact a dealer for specifics, but what sort of ballpark price are they asking for those XR machines? I hate to call the dealer early, because these people just start showing up at my shop uninvited, and it's impossible to get any info without giving you name, address, blood type, SSN, etc I'd love to check out that video, can you send to mwbhts at gmail dot com... I'll cover my ears when the swearing starts

Funny, but you need to hear how smooth it cuts a 8000 RPM @ 250 IPM
in Brass. Just PM me your work address. It is 335mb ans 331mb there are two videos. No ear covering!!! Just send the wife and kids to the next room.

The XV710 was $55,000 with the 4th Axis, but it is an Indexer with a separate control. I just programmed a sub for the indexes and programmed the index direction and degrees in the other control.

The XR1000 starts around $76,000 I believe and with options can be around $98,000. Not to bad.

Both are capable of handling 5 Axis Trunions, expanded memories, chip conveyors, high pressure coolant, HSM, glass scales, quick ATC's, 10,000 RPM Spindles w/coolers , PCIMIA options and RS232c.

You asked for Alternatives Here is one of many

Want to know about the Mikino HSM Mold machine now??

If a tool isn't spraying chips in every direction your not doing it right.

Here are a few Ingersol videos. This is a Hardinge/Bridgeport

http://www.ingersoll-imc.com/en/ingersolltv/index.htm

Cheers!!!!!!!!

[Donkey Hotey]

My take on the matter is simple: get thyself on a jet in two weeks and fly to Los Angeles. Westec is two weeks away. Most of these machines and manufacturers will be there. The show is free.

For the amount of money you're thinking about spending, a $300 airline flight, a night or two in a hotel and a rental car would be money very well spent. If you're really cheap/cash-strapped, you could fly a red-eye into LAX, drive to the convention center, see the show and fly out that night.

Take the time, talk to each vendor, look at the machines, walk back and forth, talk to tooling vendors, see sample parts being made. There really is no substitute and it's two weeks away. My $0.02.

http://www.sme.org/westec

[tobyaxis]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey My take on the matter is simple: get thyself on a jet in two weeks and fly to Los Angeles. Westec is two weeks away. Most of these machines and manufacturers will be there. The show is free. For the amount of money you're thinking about spending, a $300 airline flight, a night or two in a hotel and a rental car would be money very well spent. If you're really cheap/cash-strapped, you could fly a red-eye into LAX, drive to the convention center, see the show and fly out that night. Take the time, talk to each vendor, look at the machines, walk back and forth, talk to tooling vendors, see sample parts being made. There really is no substitute and it's two weeks away. My $0.02. http://www.sme.org/westec

Yea, but where you going to eat???? LOL,

Donkey Hotey is right. If you want to really see, you should go to the show. Just don't go walking around at night.

Donkey Hotey says it is not a place for that, and I believe him.

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by tobyaxis Donkey Hotey says it is not a place for that, and I believe him.

I'll take that discussion back to the other thread. I think I found a place.

[Caprirs]

WESTEC is a great suggestion. Exposure to a lot of machines in a short period of time with the opportunity to get straight answers in seconds.

Other brands to consider: Enshu, Kitamura