2004 VF1 price range?

[l u k e]

What would be a good price to pick this machine up for? I know there many variables involved, but I'm just looking for a general figure, thanks.

2004 HASS VF-1

Highest Spindle Speed (RPM): 5001 - 7500

CHIP AUGER

PROGRAMABLE COOLANT

OVER CABINET LIGHT

EXTRA LARGER COOLANT TANK WITH PUMP

THIS IS A VERY LOW HOUR MACHINE THAT IS IN LIKE NEW CONDITION. THE MILL IS BEING USED ON SMALL ALUMINUM PARTS ONLY. NO STEEL OR HEAVY CUTTING HAS BEEN DONE IN THIS MACHINE. SOME TOOLING IS AVAILABLE ,BUT NO VICES.

SERVO ON TIME 3450 HRS

MOTION TIME 1075 HRS

SPINDLE TIME 1250 HRS

[l u k e]

32K?

[Donkey Hotey]

Is that absolutely all that comes with it? No probing, macros, VQC, memory upgrades, floppy drive or anything else?

Have you priced an identically equipped machine on the Haas website for comparison? How far do you have to move it? Any challenges getting it moved (coming from a garage and needing the Z axis lowered and the motor removed)?

Moving a machine like this can be a challenge. A new Haas comes with the shipping and rigging to the final location and then gets warranted in that spot. That's a tough deal to beat for somebody totally green to this stuff.

It is a tough estimate and I'm afraid with that little in the way of options, it would be a tough machine to sell. It would probably be a good workhorse to put in the corner and run production stuff on but I'm not so sure about it as an only machine. I'd prefer to have a little more versatility (gearbox, 10K spindle, probing, macros and the VF-2YT envelope).

I've never liked the narrower table of the VF-1. It takes up the same room as a VF-2 so that model makes no sense to me. You didn't mention a gearbox. It's limited to 7500 RPM so it's not a high RPM machine either.

Is this as an option to the TM-1P you were considering? I'd say that this would be a better machine than a TM-1P at a similar price point. It's more rigid and has more Z travel. It has pros and cons. It's the perfect machine for somebody. What exactly are you trying to optimize here? Dollars? Space? Envelope? Do you have a minimum performance requirement or a maximum cash ceiling?

[Geof]

Originally Posted by l u k e 32K?

Maybe if the economy was booming and demand for machines was high. It has low hours but 7500rpm is limiting and it will have slow rapids as well.

25K as a first offer??? Then if they reject it 23K.

[l u k e]

Is that absolutely all that comes with it? No probing, macros, VQC, memory upgrades, floppy drive or anything else?

That is all that was listed on ebay.

Have you priced an identically equipped machine on the Haas website for comparison?

I'm currently looking at the VF2.

How far do you have to move it?

New Jersey to Arizona

Any challenges getting it moved (coming from a garage and needing the Z axis lowered and the motor removed)?

Don't know.

Moving a machine like this can be a challenge. A new Haas comes with the shipping and rigging to the final location and then gets warranted in that spot. That's a tough deal to beat for somebody totally green to this stuff.

Makes sense...

It is a tough estimate and I'm afraid with that little in the way of options, it would be a tough machine to sell. It would probably be a good workhorse to put in the corner and run production stuff on but I'm not so sure about it as an only machine. I'd prefer to have a little more versatility (gearbox, 10K spindle, probing, macros and the VF-2YT envelope).

Got it.

I've never liked the narrower table of the VF-1. It takes up the same room as a VF-2 so that model makes no sense to me. You didn't mention a gearbox. It's limited to 7500 RPM so it's not a high RPM machine either.

Is this as an option to the TM-1P you were considering? I'd say that this would be a better machine than a TM-1P at a similar price point. It's more rigid and has more Z travel. It has pros and cons. It's the perfect machine for somebody.

I've pretty much decided against the TM mills because I think I'll out grow it pretty fast.

What exactly are you trying to optimize here? Dollars? Space? Envelope? Do you have a minimum performance requirement or a maximum cash ceiling?

Always $ because I'm a working man and have never been given anything. I've always tried to spend my money wisely which is why I'm trying to weigh the differences between buying used or new. I'm leaning towards a new purchase because of everything you listed and some you didn't. But, I don't want to completely miss out on getting a great deal because of the current economic status.

Space is a factor; the VF2 is the biggest mill I can get into my shop. It will be tight but it will fit.

As far as a cash ceiling, a new VF2 is not out of reach, but it would put me in a tight spot given the current economic situation. I'm currently in construction and it's in the toilet. My company has cut my hours and is struggling to stay afloat. So the big question is do I spend my savings on a mill or not. (?) It's a double edged sword, spending my savings when I may be out of a job next week is a tough call.

As far as performance, you never can have too much right?

Your post has really helped out, thanks for the input...

[l u k e]

Originally Posted by Geof Maybe if the economy was booming and demand for machines was high. It has low hours but 7500rpm is limiting and it will have slow rapids as well. 25K as a first offer??? Then if they reject it 23K.

I did make an offer, but 32k is what he wants, oh well, moving on.

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by l u k e I did make an offer, but 32k is what he wants, oh well, moving on.

That's probably what he owes and doesn't have any choice. There's a bunch of those out there right now.

I think you have a good strategy but there have been better equipped machines out there. I think the part that would kill that deal would be the distance alone. Factor in a trip to inspect it and $5-10K to move it and you'd have eaten up a bunch of the 'advantage' of buying used.

If you get the VF-2, get the YT. That extra 4 inches of Y travel buys you quite a bit of extra travel. It sounds like you have 16" of travel but figure in the cutter diameter and rough cut travels and you quickly realize that you're limited to cutting the outside of 14" or smaller parts. It came out 6 months after I bought mine and it's the biggest thing I wish I could upgrade on my VF-2.

About 4 months ago, there was a 2004 VF-2 that was a carbon copy of my machine ($69K), for about $45K. That should give you some idea of how much depreciation to expect (and I think it had less than 1000 hours on it).

[l u k e]

BTW,

I do have products I currently make on my manual mill and sell online. My customers have been waiting for several years for me to make the move to CNC as they do understand the diffrences and limitations of the two.

My desire to get into CNC is really just to make the products I have jumbled up in my head, I have no desire to be a "job shop".

[l u k e]

That's probably what he owes and doesn't have any choice. There's a bunch of those out there right now.

Thats what I thought too.

I think you have a good strategy but there have been better equipped machines out there. I think the part that would will that deal would be the distance alone. Factor in a trip to inspect it and $5-10K to move it and you'd have eaten up a bunch of the 'advantage' of buying used.

Very true.

If you get the VF-2, get the YT. That extra 4 inches of Y travel buys you quite a bit of extra travel. It sounds like you have 16" of travel but figure in the cutter diameter and rough cut travels and you quickly realize that you're limited to cutting the outside of 14" or smaller parts. It came out 6 months after I bought mine and it's the biggest thing I wish I could upgrade on my VF-2.

I compared the VF2 and the YT eariler today and found that the only diffrence in the two machines is the 4 inches of Y travel and it cost $7,000 more.

About 4 months ago, there was a 2004 VF-2 that was a carbon copy of my machine ($69K), for about $45K. That should give you some idea of how much depreciation to expect (and I think it had less than 1000 hours on it

$6000 a year for depreciation can be used as a general figure?

[Donkey Hotey]

Well, as much as there are price advantages to buying a new machine, you might also be able to get away with a $20K, 10-12 year old machine. I wouldn't do it if production volume was important but we've also seen some spotless, older machines come through here. You could get into the game for $25K and if you outgrow it, the value won't sink nearly as much as buying a new machine.

The challenging region is those 'in between' machines that you're looking at. They probably have a bunch owed and are so new that there is some perception of retained value. I fell into this when I was shopping for my TL-1. I found a local machine with 3 minutes of 'cycle start' time but it was 3 years old. I did better by buying a new machine.

If you go the 'older' route, you'll need to hold out for something much more local. Being in Arizona, that shouldn't be a problem. Small Haas machines are all over southern California and Arizona.

[Geof]

How big are your parts? The extra Y travel Donkey Hotey is talking about may not be worth the money if your parts fit into a standard VF2 or even a VF0.

Also what is the material for your parts? If it is aluminum then you need at least a 10k spindle to get decent metal removal rates, and fast rapids are also nice.

Buying used may appear to save money but that may be an illusion if the 'cheap' machine you get cannot produce parts as efficiently as a new machine. Also moving these machines when they are not on the Haas shipping pallet can be a pain; as Donkey Hotey says a new machine arrives at your door ready to lift off.

[Donkey Hotey]

The reason I'm such a proponent of the YT option is the volume it buys: VF-4 travel for VF-2 prices. It works out to be 25% more accessible volume / table area for roughly 10% more money.