What do YOU look for when buying a used Haas VMC?

[rawen2]

I know there are variables like whether it machined Al, steel, or plastic and how well it was maintained. I've seen pictures of machines that were older model years but LOOKED much better than some newer ones.
From searching this forum it appears that the hour readings can be reset so I guess that wouldn't necessarily be a good indicator of life left in the machine.
How many hours or years of average use will the linear slides and ballscrews last before needing replacement? Can a mechanically inclined person replace them or are special tools and skills needed?
Most of the machines I've been interested in are far enough away that I can't check them in person. If I could I'd do the same as for a manual mill. I'd put a magnetic dial indicator on the table and check for backlash in X, Y and Z and then try to push the table/spindle by hand to see any slop in the ways (slides).
Again, I realize that there are many variables involved but what do YOU look for when buying a used Haas VMC?
Any information or opinions would be appreciated.
Thanks,
Ralph

[HuFlungDung]

I bought used, sight unseen, but I did get hold of an independant Haas tech (who lived in the locality of the machine for sale) to look at the machine on my behalf. I also had him perform a memory upgrade for me, which required some board changes and newer software. I spent about $5000 extra at that time, and that included some new way covers.
The results: acceptable, IMO. I ran the machine as I received it for a year or so, then replaced the spindle bearings because I thought it was getting noisy.

I think if the tech pulls back the way covers, and finds whether the ways are getting oiled properly, that is probably your main concern. If the orifices are functional, it is a good indication that the linear ways are most likely in good to excellent condition.

A backlash examination would be easy enough to do. The tech can do this, perhaps even run a ballbar test on the machine for you. A good machine will have minimal settings in the backlash compensation registers. Extreme backlash indicates probably bad thrust bearings, and I can't imagine that this is a major hurdle to fix. Bad ballscrews would be much more expensive, but if the lube system is working, the ballscrews will last a long time, and will most likely be quite noisy in operation if they are at all bad.

Pulling back the way covers means that you can also find the real story on what the machine was cutting. If you were to find abrasives in there, run

1996 and newer had brushless servos, which is a plus IMO, because one less thing to fuss with (bad brushes). They also are capable of the 710 ipm rapid.

[rawen2]

HuFlungDung,
Thanks for the response. As dumb as it sounds I never thought about getting a Haas tech to check out a tool before buying.
Does Haas have a standard charge for a machine checkup or is it the hourly travel + labor rate?

For those of you who have been through this here is an example:
http://cgi.ebay.com/HAAS-VF-3-CNC-VE...QQcmdZViewItem
I'm not interested in this particular machine because it's too big. Would you guys think a machine this old in a VF-0 or VF-1 model would be a good or bad choice for a guy starting out in his garage making aluminum motorcycle parts as a side job? Most parts would need +/- .005" tolerance.
Would it be wiser to make payments on a newer used machine or buy something older that I could pay cash for?
The newer machine might be more reliable and have better resale if the side business doesn't work out but payments still need to be made. The older machine would be paid for but might nickel and dime me in upkeep.($100 and $1000 me?)
I've read that there's a tax incentive for 2008 only that allows depreciating most or all of the cost of buying business equipment this year instead of spreading it out over many years. That makes spending more on a newer model more enticing. Or am I misunderstanding how that works?
Sorry for all the newbie questions but I need to ask someone who's actually been there.
I'm also going to talk to the CPA who does my taxes before making the leap.
Thanks,
Ralph

[HuFlungDung]

The accelerated depreciation is attractive if you have a comparable income to offset against. But for a business just getting going, it may or may not be beneficial. Yes, you can reduce your taxes to zero perhaps, for a year to two, but after that, the depreciation has all been used up, so then every dollar you earn bears no depreciation relief, and you pay taxes.
It can be useful to depreciate over a few years, in order to keep your net income in a lower category for those same years. The accelerated depreciation can leave you naked after the machine has been expensed and possibly result in a bump up to the next income class.

A VF3 is fairly large, but a large machine can also get more parts (and fixtures) on the table. Depending on how hard you have to compete to get work, multiple work station machining can be a life saver. But whatever physical shop space you have available is the primary limitation.

A used machine can require the full services of a machine shop to fix, and several years of experience handling mechanical details of machine maintenance would be a plus. A really newbie operator might be better owning a new machine and relying on tech support for a new machine. Depends on your personal qualifications.

[Bobbyr70]

Ok I am about as dumb as it gets, well not all the time but some times I think I am having a geritol moment way too often. First question is. How do I post messages or questions on this site?
I don't mean to cut into someones replys with this but I just can't find the button on the screen.
I would like to post a question.
My question is Has anyone had any dealings with Apex Auctions?
mine is starting out a bit rough. We are communicating pretty well, just can't get aligned quite yet. I do have high hopes to come to a decent resolution.
Just wondering if anyone else in the CNC Zone has had success with Apex Auctions?

[AbsoluteZero]

If new isn't in the budget then Haas does have a used division. You will get a inspection report of the machine also a warranty. This is what i do when i need another spindle turning with out the pay out for a new one.

[Matt@RFR]

Originally Posted by Bobbyr70 How do I post messages or questions on this site? I don't mean to cut into someones replys with this but I just can't find the button on the screen.

Navigate to the section you want to post the question in (we are in "Haas Mills" right now), and click the button highlited below:

[Eagle View]

We bought our Haas VF-0 1992 sight unseen and untested but it had a 4th axis on it that I wanted and have yet to use. It took me awhile to learn how to maintain and run it.

We also bought SurfCam 2 1/d and I would again all though there are other packages that will work and have their admirers, I am sure we will see some of those relpies but the TrueMill feature that is now part of SurfCam Velocity is worth it, big time. It allows me to easily cut steel with my little 7.5 HP really 5HP VF-0 and to remove huge amounts of material very rapidly. I bought SurfCam 6 months before I bought the machine. I don't believe that you can compete by hand programming the machine and I don't do any programming on the Haas control at all. PC's are cheaper and the VMC is not making money if the spindle is not cutting.

I was very glad that I had bought it in a way that it did not have to make payments. We also got it in 2 weeks before 9/11/2001 which changed the machining market big time. We could be headed into another period where there is a down turn in spendable income and that can affect things that people will buy that aren't necessary, like custom wheels and in our case custom fire arm accessories. I still had a day job when we started and we bought a lot of stuff from machine shops that were being auctioned off. It was a good learning tool to attend these auctions anyway.

First I had to learn three phase power and rotary phase convertors and that our PUD had a motor size restriction on what I could run on the residential power, even though I had installed two 200 amp services one for the house and one for the shop, when we build the house. I had to bring a commecial line in for the shop because my phase control motors were over 7 1/2 hp. If you have access to clean three phase power use that but if it is dirty or not available then a Rotory phase coverter with the convertor motor being twice the size of your spindle motor will need to be installed. Get one that has a control to keep your power constant. Tell your phase control dealer that you will be running CNC equipment on it. If they give you a blank look, then find another dealer. I have had great luck with a couple of dealers off the internet but again be careful. Despite what some people claim you need a phase convertor for each CNC machine. Trust me on this. I blew a FANUC control by trying to run two machines on the same curcuit.

Make sure you have a large enough air compressor and if you want your faimly and heighbors not to complain figure our how to muffle it. I run a 5HP 80 gallon compressor. You will need to install your airlines with a air chiller or other methods to keep your air dry. Check out Harbor Freight for their chiller.

I also learned that some sellers will tell you one thing and you may need to deal with another. My dealer said that they would store the machine for 90 days while I got the roof on my shop. 7 days later I got a call from the trucking company that the machine would be there in the next 36 hours and did I have a forklift ready to take it off the semi? Yikes, I finally found a crane that was available that could be here to lift it off and without the roof made it easy to locate the machine. We had to build a shed around the machine while we finished the shop. Buy the biggest machine that you can afford and I believe that the Haas is the easiest control to learn on your own. Having a Haas Tech check the machine is a great idea, He may already know the machine anyway and can tell you more about it. Ask the seller who maintains the machines for him. Usually it will be Selway.

Add another 5 to 8 thousand to the cost of the machine for tooling. Ebay can help with this. I run almost all collet tool holders for end mills as they are more accurate than the set screw types and give you more flexibility for holding tooling. I use ER 32, 25 and 16 collets. Buy a set for each size and then buy an additional 2 to 4 collets in the 1/8, 1/4, 3/8 and 1/2 inch sizes. Be careful buying used tooling. New stuff form established interenet dealers are better. A set of good mikes, digital calipers, gage blocks, pin sets and a Good stone as big as you can afford is worth it too. B grade is good enough.

Eagle

[Eagle View]

Rawen2

I am not trying to discourage you but just wanted to share a little of what cost me so much time and effort. I wish you the very best in your efforts. By the way some of the Haas MiniMills will work off of single phase power as well as some of the Fadal 15 series VMC. There is always a way to achieve what you really want to do.

Eagle

[rawen2]

HuFlung and Eagle View, I appreciate the insight from your experience. I'm not discouraged at all. The more I know the better my chances of success are.
Thanks,
Ralph

[Eagle View]

One more thing, you will need at least two Kurt vises and I like to have a couple of 1 1/2" to 2" aluminum plates machined both sides as large as your total work area.

On one side I drill and tap 1/2x13 holes on 2" grid 1/2 the depth of the plate and then fly cut the surface smooth. I also bolt two 4"x3"x 1/2" plates to one long side to catch the front edge of the machine table. I do this before I drill and tap the grid with the machine of course. This will assure your bolt pattern is true to the table. This is the base that I bolt my jigs and work holders as well as my vises at times. I also machine an edge on the short ends with slots to bolt the plate to the the table and to keep the bolts below the top of the plate. I have been known to flip the plate and use the smooth surface to fasten odd shaped and thin stock to that smoothed surface.

Hope this helps some more

Eagle

[fourperf]

Hey Eagle, would you mind posting a picture?

thanks

Mark

Originally Posted by Eagle View One more thing, you will need at least two Kurt vises and I like to have a couple of 1 1/2" to 2" aluminum plates machined both sides as large as your total work area. On one side I drill and tap 1/2x13 holes on 2" grid 1/2 the depth of the plate and then fly cut the surface smooth. I also bolt two 4"x3"x 1/2" plates to one long side to catch the front edge of the machine table. I do this before I drill and tap the grid with the machine of course. This will assure your bolt pattern is true to the table. This is the base that I bolt my jigs and work holders as well as my vises at times. I also machine an edge on the short ends with slots to bolt the plate to the the table and to keep the bolts below the top of the plate. I have been known to flip the plate and use the smooth surface to fasten odd shaped and thin stock to that smoothed surface. Hope this helps some more Eagle