5 Axis Haas questions

[PBMW]

I have need of a 5 axis neutating head machine, about 60 by 30 should be sufficient
Aluminum cutting only
This is for a long term aerospace contract. Parts are in the 30 by 18 by 8 inch range
There are lots of .001 true position holes on this part that are 5 axis holes
Anyone have any experience with this machine?

http://www.haascnc.com/details_5AXIS...5AXISTreeModel

It's prolly $300k optioned. $250 base.
I can buy any number of Japanese machines that will do the job, But they will be $400K more and I don't need a ton of power. I need pretty fast and pretty accurate.
Will the Haas do what I need?
Anyone have any comments?

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by PBMW Anyone have any comments?

Yeah, just one question: are you moving your business to Southern California? With your past experience with Selway, you're willing to get into a specialty machine like that? I'm really confused.

Living where you do, I'd buy something from somebody other than Selway. Nothing against the Haas. If it were me (in So Cal) I'd risk the Haas. Up there...not so much.

If it's long-term and there's enough profit in the parts, the more expensive machine might be a better deal if you don't have to deal with Selway.

I saw this really nice Okuma at Westec.

[PBMW]

Selway is the only machine tool distributor in this area that has a machine that will fit the requirements. So, that's why I'm asking about the Haas.

[Kool Parts]

Donkey,
Which Okuma is that? Looks like a real chunk of beef

PBMW,
Gosiger has a dealer near you.
http://www.gosiger.com/index.php?opt...=73&Itemid=197
Gary

[PBMW]

You know, I think Okuma's site just might be worse than Mori's.
I have no idea how to find a 5 axis newtating head machine on that site.
I have talked to Gosinger about this though. Big bux.
Okuma does have some very cool trunion machines though. I also know that Mazak has a couple machines that would fill the bill but they are almost $750k more than the Haas.
So...Will the Haas do what I need it to do?
Has anyone here had any experience with this machine?

[mgsanchez]

Originally Posted by PBMW I have need of a 5 axis neutating head machine, about 60 by 30 should be sufficient Aluminum cutting only This is for a long term aerospace contract. Parts are in the 30 by 18 by 8 inch range There are lots of .001 true position holes on this part that are 5 axis holes Anyone have any experience with this machine? http://www.haascnc.com/details_5AXIS...5AXISTreeModel It's prolly $300k optioned. $250 base. I can buy any number of Japanese machines that will do the job, But they will be $400K more and I don't need a ton of power. I need pretty fast and pretty accurate. Will the Haas do what I need? Anyone have any comments?

I run one just like that! It is loaded with all the options including glass scales and a 10k spindle. If you are looking for fast, you will be limited on the rapids (see Haas' specs) and to 80IPM on drilling feed rates with the A and/or B axis tilted. (that's out of the Haas manual) As for accuracy, I think, even with the linear scales, you are right at the edge of what you are looking for (check with your Haas rep). After running this machine, it is more rigid than I expected from my first look at it. I don't know this for a fact, but I think they paid in the $325k-$350k range for their machine.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[widgits]

Check out the line of machines made by DMG
(Deckel Maho Gildemeister) with either the Siemens or Heidenhain
control system. stay away from the Fanuc it's processing speed
is slow in comparison for 5 axis controls
Sweet machines, some models have linear drive systems with no ballscrews
and rapids in the 4000 IPM range

Look here for the US info in LA

http://www.dmg.nl/us,dmg,dmg-la

Another you might consider is Hermle
Although these would be quite expensive they are very nice machines
Some models come with a granite base for thermal stability which
is quite important for close tolerance work
These also I believe can have the Siemens or Heidenhain controls
Look here

http://www.hermlemachine.com/index.php?9

But one thing I wish to add
As GDT (Geometric Dimensions and Tolerancing) goes for true position
of a hole location, please realize that this is a tolerance zone
established for the maximum deviation from a perfect true location.

As such the maximum that you can be out is a constant value of
.3535 multiplied by this tolerance zone.
So if your tolerance zone is .001" the actual value that you can be
out of true position is .00035 on both axis.

So my advice is to get the best machine you can afford
that has thermal compensation and encoder loop feedback
for positioning accuracy

Secondary would be fast rapids, spindle RPM, horsepower
tool life management and ease of useage

To lower your costs over time it would be good to study the job
once its up and running
Manufacturing it with the fewest moves and the best tooling
If needed separate the roughing and finishing ops with different
cutters, when the finishers get dull move them into the roughing ops
Will a chip break drill cycle work instead of a full peck drill? etc.

These are things only you can do once you see it run
But take the time to tweak the code for maximum efficiency

Anything cheap isn't good
Anything good isn't cheap

The cost of a good machine is forgotten long before the
quality is remembered
Especially if it puts money in the bank over time

Widgits

[Donkey Hotey]

Hmm...I looked all over the Okuma website and couldn't find that machine: Millac 853PF-5X. Seems pretty simple. Maybe they don't sell many of those so it's a custom configuration?

I guess with a job like that, I'd consider buying more machine than I think I need. If you establish a good relationship with your customer, you may be able to bid future work in titanium or other more difficult materials.

Then again: if you can pay off the Haas quickly, the profit it earns might buy you something more sturdy as an additional machine.

[mgsanchez]

Originally Posted by widgits But one thing I wish to add As GDT (Geometric Dimensions and Tolerancing) goes for true position of a hole location, please realize that this is a tolerance zone established for the maximum deviation from a perfect true location. As such the maximum that you can be out is a constant value of .3535 multiplied by this tolerance zone. So if your tolerance zone is .001" the actual value that you can be out of true position is .00035 on both axis. Secondary would be fast rapids, spindle RPM, horsepower tool life management and ease of useage Anything cheap isn't good Anything good isn't cheap The cost of a good machine is forgotten long before the quality is remembered Especially if it puts money in the bank over time Widgits

+1 for Widgets

The tightest I have to hold with our machine is 0.002" true positions and it does that well. Bear in mind that I have the linear scales option. I have not had to hold 0.001" true positions and I think that would be at the limit of this machine. Can it hold 0.001" true positions, I don't know(?). I might mention this also, the one thing that I don't like about this machine is the "dog leg" rapids. It took me a while to get my post to work around the "dog leg" rapids.

Mike

[PBMW]

Widgets
DMG's are nice machines that's for sure. No dealer here. Closest service is Los Angeles. That's a non starter.
Hermeles are also nice machines. A trunion will not do. Parts are aprox 38 by 18 by 8
This has to be a neutating head machine.
I used to run an SNK that was a fair machine. I think Ellisons deals in them, but they are WAY more money. Even at $350k for a Haas, if it would do what I need it to do, I'd be interested.

[mgsanchez]

Originally Posted by PBMW Even at $350k for a Haas, if it would do what I need it to do, I'd be interested.

PBMW

I did some checking today and found out that the linear scales (XY&Z) option are accurate to one micron. I also went through an old inspection report that had a few holes in it and the holes are in the 0.001" true position range. (I wasn't trying to hit it that close. If I had tried, I may not have made it. LOL)

Anyway, it looks like it will hold 0.001 true positions. If I was the one buying the machine, I would have Haas prove it.

Hope this helps,
Mike

[PBMW]

Yea Mike, That does help. I'll have a talk with them. I know my local HFO dosen't have one sitting there so it may take a trip to California to get that done.