TM 1 P / VF 1

[fourperf]

Well I decided to take the plunge on a haas mill after owning 2 fadals. I am keeping one of them (fadal) and want/need another mill with a tool changer. I am stuck deciding between a tm1 p and a vf 1

The tm 1p has more x travel and the vf 1 has more y travel. The smaller tool changer is not an issue neither is the rapid speed.

Does anyone have any advice to shed on this. I machine 90 % allum. and a little stainless. It is going in my garage so if I went with the tm I would probably opt for single phase.

Thanks'

Mark

[Donkey Hotey]

If you go for the VF series, I'd say to go for the VF-2. It's the same casting, same cabinet, same footprint and 10 more inches of travel. In fact, if I could do it over, I'd get the extended Y axis VF-2. Damn, that thing came out 6 months after I bought mine.

You probably already know that you have to get the umbrella tool changer (side mount won't fit through a garage door).

They also have to take off the spindle sheet metal and the Z-axis servo to get the VF under a standard garage header. Not a bit deal. The HFO has to set up the 'installation' for the same day as the delivery.

You can get the 10K spindle in the VF and if you're absolutely sure you don't need the low speed, you can get the 15K spindle.

Of course this all assumes that you have the need for higher machining speeds. The TM-1P is a great value. If I could do it over again though, I'd have gone bigger than what I bought, not smaller.

My $0.02.

Edit: I just saw that you're in Studio City. You'll probably deal with Mike Steinbock. He's done the 'garage' thing a number of times. No sweat, really.

[fourperf]

thats right, I spoke to mike today and he sounds like a really nice guy. Where are you located. That sounds like a good setup although a little pricey for me this is not my primary business.

Thanks

Mark

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm up in Palmdale. Mike's got a number of customers with machines in their garages. He won't steer you wrong but he really does need to know exactly what you want to do with the machine.

He'll make sound recommendations on things he thinks you need and he'll steer you away from things you don't. Here's the catch: he's really low pressure so if he suggests something (positive or negative), listen and ask 'why'. I can't say much good about most sales experiences but he's top shelf.

I also really, really like the Renishaw probing option. Worth every penny. I have it because Mike suggested it as a "really good deal" just before we wrote the contract. It gave me added options that are bundled with it (VQC, Rotation & Scaling and Macros). Those options soften the blow of the probing cost.

[fourperf]

Thanks Greg, what machine(s) did you use before you got your haas?

were you able to work the price a bit or was the price you quoted pretty firm?

Thanks

Mark

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm almost totally new to this. I had some basic G-code, 20 years ago on little benchtop lathes that ran from an Apple IIe. So I knew the basics but I had no past experience with other controls.

On the pricing: no, they're pretty straight forward on the pricing. What you see on the website is the basic price structure.

The place where the pricing changes is when you get into "Value Option Packages". They have some basic sets of options which can cut down on the final, optioned price of the machine. It's just like buying a car with just AC and power windows or getting a 'luxury package.' Mike will probably suggest different levels of option 'packages' based on the options you already want.

I don't know exactly what you want the machine for but if you think your needs will grow, I'd try to at least consider a stripped VF-2 or VF-2YT: no chip auger, no 4th axis.

Add the 'hard' options (things you can't add later) like the spindle speed you want, gearbox or not and memory (I think adding it later requires a board upgrade). Consider the Renishaw probing.

Compare that to the TM-1P. Look at the spindle speeds, rigidity and upgrade path. Decide if you're going to be making money with it or if its one-off parts to support a hobby or prototyping business. Make your decision from there.

Lots of guys in here like the TM-1P. It is a bargain for an enclosed machine but since I plan to eventually go 'production' I preferred the VF-2.

[axis]

if you are concerned over what machine to get. ask you HFO to do a demo cut on each machine in stanless you will see a big difference. but it sound like you are limited to single phase so you may already have the answer to what machine you can get. the bigger the better

[fourperf]

well I am not limited to single phase as I could run a phase converter its just that single phase is easier and cheaper. a 20 hp 3 phase converter is around $3600 USD. I would like the VF 1 0r 2 but realistically the tm1p is probably enough machine for what I will use it for although the last thing I want is to buy a machine an a year later wish I would have bought more machine.

Mark

[Donkey Hotey]

I totally forgot to address power:
There are a number of resellers on eBay that have rotary phase converters. I bought a 30HP for about $1500. It required 80 amp, 220V--about the same as a spa. I think it's done with 6 gauge all the way from the panel.

The in-rush current is a PITA. It was regularly blowing breakers. I had an 80 amp that kept popping when I'd start the phase converter. It turned out that the 70 amp I bought was actually less sensitive so I installed that. She only pops the breaker, very very rarely. THIS IS THE PHASE CONVERTER ONLY. The mill has never blown the breaker.

It has to do with the mass of that 30 HP RPC motor being suddenly connected to the incoming wires. It wants to start NOW. I think the breakers can't discern the difference between starting that motor and tapping the wires to ground.

And for reference: my new TL-1 is connected to 220V single phase. It's popping the 50 amp breaker 2 out of 3 times when I try to start it. Yes, that's the size they recommend. Yes, it's got ample wire gauge.

I think household breakers aren't used to seeing the sudden inrush currents that industrial machines subject them to.

In the case of the TL-1, it's not a motor starting up but the DC power supply is juicing up a considerable bank of capacitors. I think the breaker sees them as a 'short' for just an instant and that's enough to trip things.

I mention it because I believe the TM-1 is going to have an identical power system to the TL-1.

[axis]

you my want to get a slow blow breaker or a new switch panel for the convertor alone
with a slow blow fuse before the phase convertor or try and get a soft start control.

[Donkey Hotey]

Yeah, I considered the soft-start thing but the RPC is almost trouble free now. The only remaining problem is the TL-1 and I'd have to swap out the whole sub panel to get a different type of breaker.

I'm probably going to move up to a 60 or 70 amp breaker. The wire could theoretically handle it and the TL has an internal breaker anyway.

[axis]

call an electrian there are ways around this problems moving up breaker sizes will void your warenty and can cause problems that are expencive to fix. if somthing gose wrong dew to power isusse. you may also be voiding you house insurance depending on the area you live in and the bylaws.
to save 500- 1000 bucks could cost you 10 times that. ask the electrian about a fused switch panel run of the break panel easy fix not to expencive if you can do it
just my 2 cents