VF-3 & Pallet Changer

[big_mak]

Gents,

I'm starting to consider adding to my collection. The current VF-3 is getting lonely.

I was wondering if anyone has experience working with a Haas Mill with the Pallet Changers.

Are they reliable? As with most things Haas, use is probably simple and straight forward. I have experience with Matsuura RA series machines, and the mechanism is alright, as long as you keep the ships clear.

[Geof]

Getting ambitious aren't we .

[big_mak]

wouldn't be my own boss if I wasn't
I'm surprised ou haven't gone that way Geof. I know you use 4th Axis quite a bit. @ IMTS I saw a VF-3 Rigged up with a 4th axis on one pallet.
Could cut your Manpower costs!

[Geof]

Originally Posted by big_mak wouldn't be my own boss if I wasn't I'm surprised ou haven't gone that way Geof. I know you use 4th Axis quite a bit. @ IMTS I saw a VF-3 Rigged up with a 4th axis on one pallet. Could cut your Manpower costs!

17 machines 5 guys; how far do you want me to cut them? People will start thinking I am a money grubbing exploitative capitalist pig .

Seriously, my runs are not large enough and most parts need three or four sided access which, as I understand it, is not easy or possible with a pallet system. Could be wrong and then I will use the excuse they are too expensive.

[big_mak]

Geof, geof, GEof!!! Horizontal's the way!!!!! YOu get your indexing, and you can get a 6 pallet pool!!!!!! YOu can reduce your guys from 5 to 1!!!!

I better not walk thru your sho when the guys are around!

[j-radkemachine]

Had Our Vf3 For About 6 Years Now & It's Great... We Generally Run It W/ 6 Small Dbl. Vises Or 3 Large Ones On Each Pallet... That Way We Can Run 12 Or 6 Pcs. Of Each Part On Each Pallet. It Does Cut Down On Manpower..
The Only Dis-advantage I Can Think Of You May Want To Consider Is:
How Long Do Your Parts Run -vs- The Qty?
If You Have A High Qty Of One Specific Part Before You'd Have To Tear Down The Set-up For Another Job , Then 2 Pallets Are Great.
If You're Going To Spend So Much Time Setting Up Both Pallets , Then Only Run 100 Or 250 Pcs. Of Someting.. Then You May Only Want To Use 1 Pallet. Basically Just Look @ Your Qty's -vs- Cycle Time.

STILL NO DIS-ADVANTAGE.. JUST COSTS A LITTLE MORE
Just My 2cents

[j-radkemachine]

One More Thing ... ( And Don't Get Me Wrong I Love The Haas Machines ) Chips Will Cut Thru The Insulation Of The Wires Under The Table After Time.. You May Want To Ask Your Dealer If They've Improved On That W/ The Newer Models...

[big_mak]

Are these wires exposed inbetween the pallets, and the clamping mechanism?

I am familiar with running pallet changers. Ran some MAtsuura RA's and their Horizontal's too.

Biggest thing with your repeat jobs is to have good setup doc's so that there aren't any questions that can slow the process.

My biggest concern was the mechanical relaibility of the Haas system. Ever have problems with chips packing on the locating cones and stuff like that.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by j-radkemachine .... How Long Do Your Parts Run -vs- The Qty? If You Have A High Qty Of One Specific Part Before You'd Have To Tear Down The Set-up For Another Job , Then 2 Pallets Are Great. If You're Going To Spend So Much Time Setting Up Both Pallets , Then Only Run 100 Or 250 Pcs. Of Someting.. Then You May Only Want To Use 1 Pallet. Basically Just Look @ Your Qty's -vs- Cycle Time. STILL NO DIS-ADVANTAGE.. JUST COSTS A LITTLE MORE Just My 2cents

The part I made bold interests me.

We manufacture our own product which involves making something like 200 to 300 different parts with our quantities per production run varying from 50 to 1500; when I started switching over to CNC the volumes where about one fifth of this.

I figured that a pallet system was not justified because my idea was that you had to be into the high four figures or five figures per run to justify the extra capital cost for the machine and fixturing and the extra time for a pallet setup.

You are suggesting that a couple of hundred parts can be run economically on a pallet machine? I can see if you do not have anything else you will use the pallet system but if you had two machines sitting there, one using pallets the other several double-lock vises on the table where is the break point that would mean it is more economical to run them on the pallet machine versus the vise machine.

In other words can you put some numbers to these comments?


Basically Just Look @ Your Qty's -vs- Cycle Time.
How Long Do Your Parts Run -vs- The Qty?


Also was is the typical time difference between a pallet machine versus a vise machine for changing a setup? I cannot imagine it takes the same length of time but does it take 1-1/2 times as long or something like 4 or 5 times as long?

And how easy is it to setup a pallet to do three sidea of a part in a single load? I show a setup I designed here;

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=38283

This allows work on three sides and I have a different fixture which allows work on four sides with the fourth side accessed through holes bored through the fixture base.

I know this is a lot of questions but hey I answer a lot so I should be allowed to ask a lot sometimes .

[big_mak]

In my experience with pallet changers, setups were maybe in the 1.5 times range.

Haas has a harness and stuff to setup the 4th axis on the back pallet. Something that most people could rig up themselves. I can draw a picture, but I'm affraid I'd be the only one who could read it. It involves a square hole in the sheet metal and some rollers and a tensioner of some sort. They had it on a VF-3 @ IMTS

You can also use things like Ball Lock systems to reduce your setup times. You could save your work coordinates in the programs and G10 them in, or record them in your shop books and manually enter them as well. We saved time in this shop, as the machines had some standard tooling in them so there were certain tools that you didn't have to setup all the time, just special tools had to be set with each new job.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by big_mak ....You can also use things like Ball Lock systems to reduce your setup times. You could save your work coordinates in the programs and G10 them in,...

We have three VF2s with tools kept in the machine and three double lock vises with custom jaws on the table. A setup changeover can be as simple as loading the next parts, bringing up the program and pushing the green button. Sometimes the jaws have to swapped out which can multiple the setup time about tenfold going from 30 seconds to 5 minutes .

[big_mak]

Damn you got it down to a science!