Haas controlers, the PC104 motherboard and DOS...

[crayner]

Having been laid off from my latest EE contract job, I suddenly have time to play with my VF2SS... Over the past summer, a lightning strike fried the controller and in the several weeks of dicking around with the replacement boards getting the machine back on-line I made some discoveries....

The first of which is that the Haas control software is really DOS8.2 (from 10+ years ago, which incidentlly explains why their ethernet stack sucks but I digress). DOS runns a shell app that starts automatically upon booting. The controller is an i386 or i486 pc104 motherboard.

The service tech left the fried board's harddrive with me overnight when he was shipped the wrong replacement hardware; I removed the disk and mounted it as a data drive in a windows PC, saw the disk structure (the DOS was a suprise), downloaded the files directory off of it which had all of the NC files on it, put them on a USB memorystick (the USB interface I was forcebly upgraded to turns out to be a wonderful thing), and put them back into the machine.

This has me thinking about developing 3rd party utillity software for the Haas.

1.) Would people purchase a package that allows for simple 1-button backup of a hard drive's directory containing all of it's NC files to USB?

2.) would people like the machine to be able to run a real keyboard/mouse and have a real editor with mouse highlight/cut-copy-paste capabillities? It would take running a cable from the rear box to the controller, a bit os SW and not much else

3.) is something already available to do this?

4.) What is a reasonable price for this?

crayner

[Edster]

I think if you want to develop something for Haas, try to figure out a way to hook up a usb port up to older machines without the hard drive and ethernet. I've got three machines I'd like to use a usb stick on instead of the floppy but don't want to spend 3 grand a piece for the HD/ethernet option.

[NC Cams]

Be prepared to PROVE that you don't violate or "traceably" (carefully chosen word) hack/aftermarket engineer stuff that works with the Haas "intellectual properties".

Recall that machine shops are usually MACHINISTS as opposed to computer savvy folks. They/we are pretty much at the mercy of the computer integrators - when the machine tool guys price stuff so frigging high, they pretty much invite someone to compete. However, not many EE's are creative or savvy enought to exploit what they can do with well packaged "secret" hard and software. SO the guys who own the Haas calls for factor service and winces when the bill comes - what option do you have????

Sadly, lots of computer guys would rather mess with Windows (bigger market and pre configured drivers in many cases) as opposed to dealing with rude/crude "antiquated" DOS (regardless of version). Amazingly, Haas and others find that when it comes to machine controls, DOS is NOT as obolete as the Redmond boys would want you to believe/think.

Once you have a viable product, test market it in some local shops and see how much of a "WOO HOO" factor you create or if they "wince too hard" when you mention a price. Once you find the limits, something in between should be just about right for a price. Remember, you can price high and drop price when in the market, but you can NEVER go the other direction.

If you or anyone tried to market a DOS based machine controller, you'd be looked at as being crazy for messing with an obsolete O/S. Yet wrap it in a box that says Haas, and you can sell all you can make for a tidy bundle. Go frigging figure.

You'd be crazy NOT to exploit your knowledge and skills that enabled you to see what Haas is doing and how they do it. Kudos for nosing around and learning what you learned.

When/if you decide to reverse engineer the code that operates the DOS 6.22/BMDC controller system that Bridgeport used in their PC based VMC's, mills, lathes and surface grinders in the mid/late 1990's, let me know - talk about a system that needs aftermarket support and competition (and is somewhat better documented)!!!!!!!

Details re: BMDC via P/M.

[Janos]

I too would like to have a USB stick for the machine I use since the computer only has seriel or USB and it is usualy in the other end of the shop. I also would agree that you would be "shorting yourself" to not persue this indevour. As much as I like a Haas machine, to give them a bit of competition in their own backyard would be wonderful. I would be interested to see how things go for you.

Janos

[kochevnik]

This is quite interesting - and I didn't even know there was a DOS 8.2 - does it have anything to do with OS/2 ?

I agree with the others here, the best hack would be to be able to add storage to the system. Biggest question is whether or not it would void the warranty (which I'm sure it would). On the other hand the Haas warranty for some of their new machines is only 6 months, so after that, people would be a lot more willing to experiment.

Did you see if the hardware has additional slots for daughterboards, or additional unused ports ? This could provide an easy route for implementing this.

I think the idea for the separate keyboard and mouse and editot is a goldmine too. The only thing similar is Haas' simulator which goes for $1600 new, and an old one went for $1300 on EBay a month ago. I've NEVER understood why Haas doesn't have a software package that could be loaded on the PC to similulate and test GCode before it's run on the mill - I mean how inefficient is that ??? Have some guy standing up punching codes into a non-QWERTY keyboard, using oodles of juice to do it - probably costs a dollar or more an hour in electricity alone - not to mention the lost efficiency of the mill not running and the guy having to be in such an awkward position.

I'd go for it - with an emphasis on machines that were out of warranty. I think that lightning strike might have been a good thing for you.

And BTW - what are you doing to protect your mill from another such strike ?

[Janos]

How is it that Haas make a big deal about their processor boards are non-pc boards and are strictly a Haas creation? Are they doing that so someone like crayner doesn't try to make an honest buck by selling upgrades using pc parts? Even though a memory or performance upgrades would be a definate bonus for most, I myself (not being proficent in writing long code and am more reliant to a post processor and a DNC to do my work) would wonder would people require a QWERTY keyboard? Being that most operators can just about punch the numbers in blindfolded. (Sound like the devil's advocate huhh?) Granted the energy savings alone would probebly warrant the swap.

On a parallel note, Is there a switched plug on the board that I can use to plug in my lights? We didn't get the "Upgraded" lighting and we have a flourescent light that works very well but the wire, plug and pull string makes it look like it belongs on the Clampett's back porch. I can put in the switch in but plugging into something wrong on the panel or in the cabinet scares me a bit.

Thanks

[crayner]

I've started a development effort to impliment a generic USB port upgrade for these machines. This is not as simple as it sounds; USB is an extremely software -centric interface due to the wide array of USB devices out there. The USB port will be able to accept bluetooth, wireless ethernet, USB Memory stick or even a simple USB cable for downloads to/from the machine. It will be independant of the control system running on the machine, and should allow for the addition of USB to 20 year old machines of all manufacturers, dragging them into the 21's century. The data transfer will be encrypted, meaning that you need software running on a host PC to use the link (this protects the file transfer; an errant employee can steal alot of data on a 2G memory stick).

The QWERTY keyboard/mouse project will NOT be independent of the control system; as the software for this needs to interface directly with the interrupt stack on whichever processor/OS the machine is running.

[crayner]

The Haas tech told me that they have a sacrificial $500 board that protects the machine from spikes, etc. I asked about installing it, they were more concerned with just getting me back online and told me to schedule it later (sure another site-charge for them)

I've been just shutting down for T-storms and I make sure to hit the shop's main kill switch before I leave the building.

[NC Cams]

I thought you were the customer - since when does the service provider tell the customer what to do with their machine???

Sounds like a "reschedule this" moment. Damn near anything can be Fedex'd overnight. Don't see why you have to wait until later for a board that they probably should have had in the damn machine from the get go. Like a lightning strike is NOT unexpected anymore.

Who says that the USB has to deal with EVERY possible means of data porting that man has or will conceive?. I'd think that a hardlock protected key (IE dongle on parallel port or the like) would enable you to create a USB port that you could initially attache a GIG stick to so as to transfer data. I think that TOO MUCH sophistication creates complexity in search of a need. Besides, there already are network cards that have been fitted to Haas - my neighbor has 5 machines on his network and he's porting data to and from them all the time.

Find a way to transfer data using a contemporary, standardized mode of data transfer - I'd forget about being the end all be all. This way, the owner of info-meister of a company can load/unload code from the machine and not have to worry about a nare-do-well employee from absconding with code via an unauthorized download. Although you may be aware of all the known ways of USB communication, that doesn't mean that all of them need to be involved on the shop floor. Service the clear, real and present needs, not the "Gee, it would be neat if's" that can and will trip you up.

Seems that we forget when a simply floppy used to be the ONLY way to transfer data from machine to machine. Walk before you run and learn to run fast before you go supersonic.

[crayner]

This is a damned if you do, damned if you don't situation

The title sums it up. USB is such a layered protocol that by the time you're done with a "just the memory stick / mass storage" implimentation, you have everything you need anyway. For a simple 4-wire interface, USB has LOTS of code requirements.

A SD Flash card implimentation is another story. The flash cards in the new generation of cell phones are the size of a fingernail, and this is actually what is on the USB memory sticks. The stick has a USB client flash controller chip and a flash RAM. If you remove the USB from the picture and use one of the bigger flash devices, like in a camera (the 1.5 inch square ones so you don't loose the F^[&ing thing), you end up interfacing across a SPI bus; that protocol is much simpler from a SW perspective, but you still need to impliment a FAT32 filesystem handler, etc.

The USB code can be purchased/licensed and is a complete solution, the flash card solution is a home-brew code chunk. For a small development team, looking at time-to-market, staffing, product longevity, etc. it still seems that purchasing the USB software stack is still the better solution and offers best flexabillity. Memory sticks go obsolete, a transport protocol doesn't.

[gromit68]

the usb gizmo sounds great, a lot better than the pricing haas is offering.
However, if you could do a flash type unit, it sure does sound a lot easier to implement. In either event , I know I would be interested.

[automizer]

a simple and cheep way to get around the small size of a floppy disk with out the USB upgrade are Floppy Disk Adapters I use a sony one seen here there are some that use SD cards seen here take a look around they are very handy.