High Hour Machines

[partsman]

We are in the market for a good used VF1 or VF2 but can't afford anything too new right now. This will not be for super heavy use but we would like to get 3-5 hours a day cutting aluminum and a few mild steel parts out of it for a few years at least.

We see a lot of machines in the 5,000 to 10,000 hour range. What would be considered a high hour machine? Is there a standard 'life span' on these machines? I know good maintenance is the key and a machine that looks abused should probably be avoided but would 10,000 hours scare you away from a clean looking machine with a good ballbar test?

Thanks in advance!

[gizmo_454]

First of all, physical appearance of the machine is a good indicator as to whether the machine has been properly cared for, but not always a good indicator to whether or not it will be a good machine. Anything can happen to any machine, new or used, at any time. Granted, the chances of having problems with a new machine are far more slim than a used machine.

I'm going in circles....About the "hours" on the machine. Are you talking about "power on hours"? Are you talking about "spindle hours"? Or are you talking about "in motion hours"? The machine can have 10,000 "power on hours" and not have many spindle or in motion hours. A single shift shop can add up 10,000 power on hours in 5 years, assuming 2000 hours per year. Our Mini Mill is almost 6 years old, has over 850,000 tool changes, and the last time I looked, over 14000 power on hours, and still runs with the best of them. But it has never been crashed. It has run wide open at 6000 rpm for more hours than I'd like to admit. But I try to keep the load meter to 50% or less for anything we run. Of course, try getting a 50% load on the spindle with a 1/8" end mill in stainless. Not going to happen.

As to a life span... I never really asked a Haas rep what they consider the normal life span to be. A rep from Hardinge told me that they consider the lifespan of their machines to be: 1 shift, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for 5 years.

We have bought both new and used equipment and have had good and bad experiences with both. When it all comes down to it, only you can make the final "yeah" or "neigh" on the machine. Like buying a used car... Would you be afraid of buying one with 100,000 miles on it? 150K? 200K? I'd take the one with 200K over the one with 100K if the one with 200K had been taken care of and the one with 100K had been beat on.

Look at it.
Listen to it.
Have someone else look at it.
Have someone else listen to it.
Have a ball bar test done on it if it makes you feel better.
If it's running in a shop currently, look at a sample of what it's making.

We have no idea how many hours our Citizen swiss machine has on it because the batteries in the control died and it lost it's memory before we bought it. In the last year and a half, we replaced one servo drive with a NOS unit off ebay and had one rebuilt by the manufacturer. Mind you, the machine is 20 years old. And we paid less than 10% of new price for it. Still, it's one of the best machines in the shop.

Good luck in your hunt!
Mike

[Sinistersam]

Great advise Mike.
Another thing to consider would be the type of shop that used it. Typically, larger companies that just want to bang out products in the fastest time possible, hire "button smashers" or cheep labor to run (crash) the machinery. Maintenance and care do not exist in these environments normally. As Mike stated, you can usually tell a machine that's been used and abused.

[haastec]

Keep in mind that until recently, the machine hours will be reset to zero if it has ever had a software update or processor PCB change. Most machines will have had at least a software update at some time.

Like others have said, good judgement, thorough evaluation of the machine and environment are key and will tell you a lot. Plus, parts are still readily available for even the earliest of machines.

Good luck!

[Machineit]

As to a life span... I never really asked a Haas rep what they consider the normal life span to be. A rep from Hardinge told me that they consider the lifespan of their machines to be: 1 shift, 10 hours a day, 5 days a week, 52 weeks a year, for 5 years.

All I can say is that if this were applied to the Haas machine, then there are about a million of them out their working waaaaay past their limits!

[partsman]

Thanks! Those are all very good points. I was not aware of the software reset.

I'm sort of going out on a limb buying one of these anyway. My partner is not 100% on board... yet We are not really in the business of making our own stuff right now but I really think we can make it work if we get a reliable machine.

I'm probably only going to get one shot at this so I really don't want to get something that is going to cost a fortune to fix or be down all the time.

Just trying to weight the high cost of a new machine with the unknown of a used one.

Thanks for all of the comments!

[underthetire]

First thing to do is find out who services them in your area and talk to a few people that use that service. You can always replace guides, ballscrews and get spindles rebuilt if required. I always tell people to get a good service guy in to look at used machines before purchase. Someone who knows the machine. It's easy to make a ballbar look good in the picture, but what's the real story.