Starting Out ... VF-2

[SDS510]

Hi All,

I have been lurking for a couple months now and as this is my first post I will start with a little background ... I run a small business servicing the drag racing community here in Australia. I supply and install data loggers on some of the leading cars in the country along with providing consultancy and tuning services.

I want to expand my business and start making brackets for the sensors and loggers rather than leaving it to the customers along with some development work on various racing components.

I started looking at some of the hobby mills (syil etc) but have ended up settling on a Haas VF-2, which in time will allow me to perform some cylinder head work in addition to the primary work. Specs as follows:

20 Station Automatic Umbrella Type ATC, 1 MB Memory, 15” Colour LCD Screen, USB Port, Memory Lock Key switch, Rigid Tapping, 55-Gallon Flood Coolant System, 10,000 rpm Spindle, Auto Chip Auger, Programmable Coolant Nozzle, Wireless (Renishaw) Intuitive Work & Tool Probing System and Power Failure Detection Module

I have a degree of machining skills (lathe, mill, sheet metal work, chassis manufacture) developed through an apprenticeship and hands on work, coupled with my trade as an electronic technician with a broad range of programming skills I feel the step into the CNC world won't be too big ... although I'm not arrogant enough to think it will be easy.

What I want to ensure is that I minimise the amount of mistakes along the way (although I'm sure there will be a few) so I would appreciate any advice on the following.

1. OneCNC for the CAD/CAM package (25% off at the upcoming trade show).

2. BT40 vs CAT40 ... the Haas agent recommends BT40, seems more the standard in Australia but from what I have seen online it limits some tooling suppliers (with the internet making the world so small I wonder if CAT40 is the way to go if I plan on ordering my tooling online).

3. Is the high speed machining worth it now or do I wait until I am doing more complex parts.

4. Is the Intuitive programming worth it if I am primarily programming from a CAD / CAM package (its $2k which can be put towards the software).

Thanks in advance .... Paul

[behindpropeller]

Originally Posted by SDS510 Hi All, I have been lurking for a couple months now and as this is my first post I will start with a little background ... I run a small business servicing the drag racing community here in Australia. I supply and install data loggers on some of the leading cars in the country along with providing consultancy and tuning services. I want to expand my business and start making brackets for the sensors and loggers rather than leaving it to the customers along with some development work on various racing components. I started looking at some of the hobby mills (syil etc) but have ended up settling on a Haas VF-2, which in time will allow me to perform some cylinder head work in addition to the primary work. Specs as follows: 20 Station Automatic Umbrella Type ATC, 1 MB Memory, 15” Colour LCD Screen, USB Port, Memory Lock Key switch, Rigid Tapping, 55-Gallon Flood Coolant System, 10,000 rpm Spindle, Auto Chip Auger, Programmable Coolant Nozzle, Wireless (Renishaw) Intuitive Work & Tool Probing System and Power Failure Detection Module I have a degree of machining skills (lathe, mill, sheet metal work, chassis manufacture) developed through an apprenticeship and hands on work, coupled with my trade as an electronic technician with a broad range of programming skills I feel the step into the CNC world won't be too big ... although I'm not arrogant enough to think it will be easy. What I want to ensure is that I minimise the amount of mistakes along the way (although I'm sure there will be a few) so I would appreciate any advice on the following. 1. OneCNC for the CAD/CAM package (25% off at the upcoming trade show). 2. BT40 vs CAT40 ... the Haas agent recommends BT40, seems more the standard in Australia but from what I have seen online it limits some tooling suppliers (with the internet making the world so small I wonder if CAT40 is the way to go if I plan on ordering my tooling online). 3. Is the high speed machining worth it now or do I wait until I am doing more complex parts. 4. Is the Intuitive programming worth it if I am primarily programming from a CAD / CAM package (its $2k which can be put towards the software). Thanks in advance .... Paul

I never use the Intuitive programming. Always do everything in CAM.

I'm 2 years into learning how to run a CNC mill from not knowing anything.

You have the HSM trial on your machine, you might want to try before you buy. Since it is just a call to them and input of a code I would leave it off unless you are rolling it into a loan of some sort.

Tim

[gizmo_454]

Like behindpropellor, I have not used the intuitive programming system, however, I do most of my programming by hand as opposed to CAD/CAM because I find it more suited to my needs in a production environment. To each their own, in that respect.

As far as the high speed machining is concerned, I would personally order it with the machine if you are financing it. If you buying the machine without financing, meaning paying cash, I would assume the $2300US for the option later will not be a problem.

In either case, the HSM option will be needed if you plan on doing complex contouring of parts in the future. I recommend it.

As to the CAT vs. BT debate, they both have their merits. We use CAT 40 tooling in our shop due to availability. I understand, though, that BT holders are better balanced out of the box due to their design.

Good luck with your decision!

Mike

[SDS510]

Thanks guys appreciate the feedback.

Seems a no to intuative and a yes to high speed. $$$ are a concern and although I intend on financing (its all about minimising taxable income) its a trade of between repayments and finding the money later.

I guess 200 hrs goes some way however it is unclear whether:

1. 200hrs relates to machine or spindle time.
2. Whether the time is based on machine time or the time the option has been activated.
3. If deactivating the option stops the timer.

There appears to be multiple opinions on all of this ... guess its time to confirm with the dealer, in writing of course.

If tool change time isn't a concern is the umbrella ATC ok or do people have issues with them.

[gizmo_454]

We have the umbrella in our Mini Mill and we have had no issues with it. For all intents and purposes, it's almost bulletproof...taken care of, of course. We have the side mount on our VF2SS. What an amazing difference in time of tool changes!

The 200 hours trial is power on time on the machine. As to whether or not the timer stops if deactivated, definitely check with Haas. I was under the impression that once it was turned on, the timer ticked away no matter what you did when the machine was on.

Again, good luck!

Mike

[djr76]

I have a umbrella type and a side mount type tool changer. The side mount is the way to go and much faster tool changes. The umbrella types can get a bit sticky and get chips up in there and can get some corrosion.

[zsinclair]

I use the Intuitive Programming only when I am swamped. It is occasionally easier to have a machinist simply make a quick MDI program with it. However if I had to do it over again I would not spend the extra money on it. It is handy if you use it though.

Zack

[haastec]

Side mount T/C is definitely more reliable and faster.

The umbrella style is still a good tool changer and will give you many years of service. However, it is more exposed to chips and coolant which can cause problems over time with limit switches and other moving parts; a bit more maintenance.

[SDS510]

Thanks guys ... I would obviously love the side mount but at an additional $12k is very hard to justify ... this would be my software and tooling budget. I could survive without the side mount but tooling not so much .

I maybe need to negotiate a bit harder .

Another item which has me somewhat confused is the memory. The machine is quoted with 1Mb and an option for 750Mb. I understand the program size dictates how much memory but I don't understand the relationship between Harddrive, USB and Ethernet ... can a program be run from one of these external devices ... be great if someone can put this into simple terms.

Thanks ... Paul

[Gabe Newell]

The probe/tool offset setter is super valuable to me and i had to get the IPS in order to use the probe. Other than that I never use IPS.

I bought the hard drive and extra memory and never use them (even huge files run off the USB) even though I do a lot of 3d contours.

I didnt get HSM and it was a mistake. HSM isn't really the correct name for the feature. Anything that isn't a long straight line goes faster with HSM and the surface finish is better. My impression is that if HSM isnt' on that the control doesnt do any look ahead, which results in a lot of stuttering in movements.

I have BT, order all my tooling online, and dont regret the choice. I have the umbrella but would be happier with the side mount if I could go back in time. Rigid tapping is a must as is setting spindle orientation to make rigid tapping repeatable.

I use Solidworks for CAD and HSMWorks for CAM. Solidworks is well known, so I don't have much to add. HSMWorks is awesome, both as software and in terms of the support.

The memory/hard drive/USB is straight-forward. If you want to edit a program, it has to fit in RAM. I always edit on the system that has my CAM software (the Windows based NC editors are a gazillion times better than trying to edit on your Haas), but I almost never edit the output of HSMWorks because it is already doing what I want it to do. I run my programs directly off of a USB drive which costs about 1,000 times less than buying storage from Haas (16 GB USB drive is $18 USD, VF-2 750 MB option is $1,595 USD, so Haas is actually 1,777 times as expensive now).

I think i should have gone with a faster spindle and through spindle coolant, but those are the kind of features that might have hidden negatives so you dont want to listen to my wishful thinking on those unless someone who has them says they are straight-forward improvements.

Overall have I been happy with my purchase of a Haas? Absolutely.

As far as tooling, i have been moving almost exclusively to shrink fit. I can't remember the last time I used an end mill holder. I buy solid carbide cutting tools from Lakeshore Carbide with either Altin (for steel) or ZrN (for aluminum) coatings, and will occasionally buy brand name tools that cost 3X as much that last 1/2 as long just to remind myself what it feels like to waste money.

Hopefully this is helpful.

[SDS510]

Thanks Gabe this makes it alot clearer.

The shrinkfit holders are attractive but the price of the fitting tool is exteremely high. Is there a cost effective solution to this that I haven't found?

[haastec]

Originally Posted by Gabe Newell Rigid tapping is a must as is setting spindle orientation to make rigid tapping repeatable.

Spindle orientation is not needed to make rigid tapping repeatable. The machine uses the encoder pulse to mark the starting point.

+1 on the Renishaw system. This is money well spent which you will not regret getting.