Haas VF2 Super Speed

[Dave K]

We've all seen the super speed series ripping through aluminum like it's plastic. I am considering the purchase of one of these, but have been told the torque drops off considerably quick at slower speeds. Has anyone bought one of these and then found disappointment when trying to run steel jobs? Most of my steel jobs are just 1018 coldroll, so I think I can get good rpm anyway, but just in case I get that one job that requires a 1" diameter high speed hog mill, I wonder if anyone has any experience with this?

[JPMach]

I know one shop in my area got a vf-4ss with pallet changer. He said withintwo weeks of getting they had it stalled out with a 3" face mill. I don't know exactly what they were cutting or what the conditions were, but he's not to happy with it mostly because of that.

JP

[Dave K]

I'd like to know what they were cutting and what speeds and feeds they were using. These machines are 30 horsepower.

[DieGuy]

Do they use some form of VFD to control spindle speed, If so I read someplace on here that really slow speeds will lower the torque considerably. Think it was a post by Al the Man.

[HuFlungDung]

Check the Max Torque setting between that and the regular VF2. The rating is 75 ft lbs @2100 rpm versus 75 ft lbs @ 1400 rpm for the standard machine.

The standard model with a gearbox will develop 250 ft lb @ 450 rpm.

Using a face mill requires more torque in proportion to its diameter, of course, so if you want to take monster cuts, the 75 ft lbs is not going to permit it.

Don't confuse HP with torque, unless you are talking about machines with exactly the same speed range. Generally speaking, when the Variable Frequency Drive is commanding 60 Hz output to the motor, that is when the motor is running at its nameplate speed, and developing its nameplate horsepower. As the frequency goes higher, the VFD limits the current, otherwise the motor would just keep drawing more and more, and would burn up. The torque goes down, because the current is cut back, but the rpm goes up, so you have constant horsepower output whenever the motor is running at more than 60 hz.

Through parameter settings in the VFD, Haas can permit the motor to draw current 100% higher than standard operational draw on the fully loaded motor, but there is a time limit on this to protect the motor from overheat. However, this is where the "other half" of the missing horsepower comes from. A 20 hp rated machine, has a 10 hp (continuous duty) motor.

The super speed mills will never be workhorse machines, they are for light depth of cut, and high feedrate. You might simply have to change the way you machine to accomodate this fact: use smaller endmills to rough with, moderate depth of cut, but really jack the feedrate up.

[MR_NC]

The one we have here is kicking arse. Love the thing to death. I have no problems with power. Yes we do lots more alu than steel. However, when steel has been running I have not been dissapointed. However, we don't have ultra hyper cylce time requirements either. I am not one to push steel parts, lots of stuff we do is on a 5-axis rotary (TRT-1605X) can't really get busy with setups on one of those.

Nothing compares to using the 2inch Kennametal face mill we have @ 10K and 150 IPM in alu. It _IS_ impressive. The machine has proven to be very accurate and dependable. Even at these speeds and loads. These cuts run at 100-110 % spindle load. Full tool engagment, .2 deep 6061 IMHO, it's getting the stock off pretty fast. I have not done the math to confirm the cut _is_ in the area of 30 HP but like I said it is about 100-110 % load when cutting under those conditions.

The toolchanger is scary fast. However, what they don't tell you is that you are only gonna swing 4 pound tools that fast. This I thought was a bummer. We just marked everything heavy in the pocket file and live with the standard tool change speed. Sadly in some ways the machine can be too fast. I.E. toolchange, when you pull the Z and swap the tool if you are swinging full speed (1.6 sec) and going top rapid (1400 IPM) the machine will "soak" the bloody tool holder taper while changing tools. Machine is so fast the coolant is still "draining" locally from the lines at the point the tools swap. This I feel to be totally un-cool. Now you could just turn the shower nozzles off, however I don't find that cool either. So we live with the standard speed for tool change and everything is ok.

I hated the coolant tank until I "fixed" it. The factory tramp skimmer is worthless. Sadly even being not a box way machine the thing still uses a lot of way oil and is hard on coolant. We had foaming problems with the machine early on. So much more spindle now that we had to alter the coolant formula somewhat (same stuff just anti-foam).

Personally, thinking 1inch hog mill and a Haas type machine is not "ideal" IMHO. If your machine must cover that type of work be prepared for one of two options. A) As mentioned change the tooling and the way you machine and get the VF2. B) Look at different machines. I love this Haas don't get me wrong, but if 1inch hog mills were a priority, I don't think it would be the solution.

For the record, we have the VF3-SS that was shown at Westec 05. With a TRT-1605XB. IMHO, an outstanding machine given the price.


Best regards,
Sean

[Dave K]

Sean,
Excellent review of your ss. Thank you. What's up with that tool changer speed? You can change the speed of it? Is that done with m-codes or some sort of manual setting? Is it something you can program so when the heavy tool comes up it goes slower and then speed up again for the lighter tools? And, how slow is the slower settings?

[MR_NC]

Originally Posted by Dave K Sean, Excellent review of your ss. Thank you. What's up with that tool changer speed? You can change the speed of it? Is that done with m-codes or some sort of manual setting? Is it something you can program so when the heavy tool comes up it goes slower and then speed up again for the lighter tools? And, how slow is the slower settings?

It's sorta "love hate"
Yes you get the following settings for all tools in the drum.
1. Large
2. Heavy
3. Nothing

Now, large tools are forced to be heavy. Heavy tools only change at 25% max tool change speed. The control will manage the empty pockets on the sides of large tools automaticaly. It also keeps tabs on who is heavy. So if you are swaping a heavy tool going in or out of spindle it will only change at 25% speed. If swaping both tools marked "clear" / light then the speed will be full. But, it's spooky how fast it is. This is read only stuff that is set thru the control to the best of my understanding. You can not change the heavy, large, etc on the fly. Possibly scary if you did. These settings are on the pocket table / drum table page in the control.

I only change tools that fast now to show off when we get company We get plenty of speed out of the machine. That and I don't have a scale at the machine yet so I can get the weight of tools as setup when I load them. It's painless to mark everything heavy and move on.

That and a couple of things sorta freak me about the changer.
1. Opening the door during a tool change with the door hold override on will stop the arm mid swing. Spooks the hell out of me! It will complete the change when the door is closed but damn... Thats just wrong to stop a tool change mid swing when the arm is moving so fast you bout can't see it!
2. It is sorta loud when it changes tools that fast. No it's not a malfunction. It's just plain gonna make some noise when it's going that fast. One of the shop guys asked if it was "doing back-flips" when we first ran it with the changer at top speed

If you have any questions about the Haas SS line. Just fire away. I have been putting this one thru it's paces for a few months now. That and we got about everything on this machine. No pallet changer, but pretty much everything else.

Best regards,
Sean

[Geof]

Not a directly related question but I am curious. I have several Haas VMCs, if the tool identified in Setting 81 is not in the spindle when they are powered up the tool changer will cycle at the end of the homing sequence WITH THE DOOR OPEN!! Does the Super Speed do this?

[MR_NC]

Originally Posted by Geof Not a directly related question but I am curious. I have several Haas VMCs, if the tool identified in Setting 81 is not in the spindle when they are powered up the tool changer will cycle at the end of the homing sequence WITH THE DOOR OPEN!! Does the Super Speed do this?

Yep, it's bogus and unsafe IMHO. However, regardless of setting 81 or tool light/heavy the SS will not change tools at top speed if the door is open. This includes the startup toolchange.

Way I got around it is.
1. Put a tool in this pocket we never use. (ultra-short tool)
2. Set this number (25) for that tool
3. Program ends as follows
T25 M66 <-dummy tool (yes we use M66 for tool change we need to position if the TRT160 is loaded so the M66 is the alias for such)
T1 <-the probe

This way I get the following.
1. My first tool preloaded.
2. A tool in the spindle at power down (keeps out chips, coolant and such)
3. No tool change at power up.

For us this was a big deal as the damn thing "homes" right on top of the TRT160. Doing tool changes in that location is really a bad idea. With this, the shop guys can just hit powerup restart in the AM and just kill the control at night when the program finishes. No tool change will happen.

Now, I know what you are thinking....
Why don't I just set 81 for T1? Well, I don't like the machine to have the probe left in the spindle. People do dumb things sometimes. If the probe ain't in the spindle they can't bust my stylus, or somesuch cleaning the machine at the end of the day

Best regards,
Sean