Horitzontal vs Vertical

[lkenney]

This past week my business just took a jump that will require a change in our machining methods.

I have been kind of watching some Haas hortizontal both for price and how they work. I can see real advantages to a dual pallet system to increse input but the additional set ups bother me.

I would like to hear from others that have made the jumb from vertical mills to Horizontals. Is it worth the cost, time effort?????


Thanks

Lowell

[haastec]

As with most questions regarding machining, the answer is IT DEPENDS.

If you are looking at a decent volume of parts, then the additional setup and expense will pay off.

How are your programming skills? With a horizontal and the rotary table, you can do multiple sides along with the multiple parts. This is great for unattended machining.

Depending on how you approach your programming will directly affect the setup time. If working with a tombstone for example, if you approach each side and part with a seperate work offset you can easily become overwhelmed with many work offsets to keep track of. This can become quite confusing when making adjustments as one change may affect multiple other work offsets.

However, if you can program from center of rotation and have dedicated fixtures or vise jaws, setups will be a snap.

I love our horizontal. FWIW

Good luck with your decision!

[underthetire]

I agree. It depends. Have you thought about a vertical with pallet changer? Plenty of verticals with high speed pallet changers around, many different brands, even Midaco offers ones to put on existing machines.

[Ydna]

I don't personally like using a vertical with pallet changer (due to chip control, cleaning) but it should be noted that there's a HUGE price jump from vertical to horizontal. You can get a very nearly fully-loaded vertical VF-SS machine for under the base price of a horizontal, and the horizontal still won't have the speeds of the other machine, or the work envelope.

BUT, for me personally, the other side of it is the multi-side machinine with a horizontal. If you have a workpiece that can take good advantage of the integrated 4th, you can pull some great cycle times. But like he said above it can be pretty intricate dealing with such things. Expensive hardware too (what else is new)

It's true you could get a vertical mill with a 4th axis "tombstone" laid on its side parallel with the X axis, but using a true horizontal with 4th would be preferable for obvious reasons. Not the least of which is the crazy level of Z clearance you'd need in the vertical machine to make it comparable to a horizontal. To me the vertical with tombstone is a workaround, but is certainly an option.

I'm kindof looking at both varieties of machines right now too, personally those are just some of the things I'm considering...

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Ydna ....It's true you could get a vertical mill with a 4th axis "tombstone" laid on its side parallel with the X axis, but using a true horizontal with 4th would be preferable for obvious reasons. Not the least of which is the crazy level of Z clearance you'd need in the vertical machine to make it comparable to a horizontal. To me the vertical with tombstone is a workaround, but is certainly an option.......

This can be a very viable option for moderate volumes, i.e., in the many hundreds to low thousand. ANd it depends on your part size whether you need 'crazy' Z clearances. I have four Super MiniMills with the 4" extension on the column that gives 14" of Z clearance and this is enough to run a HRT 210 with a 'horizontal tombstone'. Not exactly a tombstone because we only put parts on one side, but very often we work on three sides of the part and they come off the machine completed with only one fixturing. The limited X travel does restrict us to 5 or 6 parts per load but because the the fixtures are loaded outside the machine the productivity is very good.

[eksinger]

while it's true that verticals are easier to set up, the horizontal gives you the advantage of gravity of your chips falling out of the way. we have 5 vertical machining centers. and had one horizontal machining center.. traded the horizontal machining center after 10 yrs and bought a new horizontal machining center with a 5 pallet system. it runs multiple jobs on 5 pallets 24-7 while the verticals run during normal shift hours and sometimes at that.. we've got another horizontal/10 pallet system on the way. want production capability? got to spend money to make it.. also helps to have good software and people to run it.

[johnmckeown]

We have both if you parts are small haas has a 300 mm horizontal,about 100K we have one and it has been fine.as most have said it takes a bit longer to setup but you can get three sides of a part done in one setup and with the pallet system the machine continues to run wile loading the second pallet.also programming from center of rotation is the best way to go,we have fixture plate for each job so set up is quick the second time.if you have the cash a pallet pool will help run light out.Haas ec400 PP about 300K if you are running steel, stainless tight tolerance parts Toyoda has a great 400mm horizontal but it is spendy about 600k

good luck

[KenFoulks]

The EC-400 can also get the 70 pocket tool changer.

[underthetire]

Just a little caution, Haas are decent low end machines, and run quite well. The only problem I see with Haas is all the little options. Once you start getting a good warranty, spindle speeds,coolers, number of tools etc.., you start to get up to the higher end prices. Most of the top shelf machines, Mori, Makino etc.. come with a lot of those little gotchas standard. Just something to look at.

[sureman]

In my view if the type of component is shared, with required volumes, no. of faces to attack and complexity involved will lead to decision of Vertical or horizontal machine.
Generally the trend is to use Vertical machine more for roughing operation so as to reduce machine hour cost and use horizontal machine for majority of finishing operation.
but still the imp point is understanding component machining process, required accuracies and cost of component machining play major role.
thanks

[DSIF]

As others have said-it depends. Do you have thousands of parts to run? If so,a horizontal is the way to go. Do you have good programming skills? It is vital on a horizontal.
A horizontal mill will run circles around a vertical production wise. If you do decide to get one,make sure you buy additional work offsets(G54.1P1etc...). You will need them-trust me.
Dan
PS: Kitamura makes very nice 300mm and 400mm horizontal machining centers. Check them out.

[doug6949]

I ran a Mazak 6000 horizontal (two pallet) for a few months. Horizontals are great for fixtured work. That means recurring jobs, not one-off job shop stuff. They can be a PITA to set up and program.

We have two Haas machines. They were a good investment at the time but I would not buy one today. IMO, Haas is not the bargain it was six years ago.