Need Help!- Why Should I Buy a Haas?

[heavycut]

I’m in the process of purchasing a new vertical machine center. I’ve been interested in haas for a while because of some of the features I have noticed throughout the years. (i.e., very open for easy work viewing, nice controller, bla bla bla) But what I want to know is why I shouldn’t buy a haas. I currently have 3 Mazak VTC 250/50D’s, a 99’ model Okuma, and a pair of 80’s model FNC Makino Leblonds that work great but will soon be for sale. I like the Mazaks but have had too much spindle trouble with them to purchase another, not to mention their very large footprint; I’m running out of room. Anyway, I have a quote on a VF/6 with all the bells and whistles right now, and I like what I have seen so far. My only withdrawals are from the gear/belt driven spindle, and the traveling table rather than traveling spindle. Any comments, questions, or warnings would be much appreciated. Thanks

[KenFoulks]

The 40 taper VF-6 has a direct drive 7.5k, 10k, or 12k spindle. The 50 taper has a 10k inline option.

[underthetire]

Haas is a good machine, but your going backwards Don't expect a Haas to cut like an Okuma or Makino.

[lkenney]

There is a shift in machining technology that is occuring with new cutting tools driven by new software that enable the Haas and their controller to cut with and last as long or longer than the "Big Boys" at less life cost. Without knowing what you are machining it is hard to know if these new methods and tools would help you. I can't imangine that they wouldn't but each knows their own business. With the new methods all the machines would be cutting pretty much the same tool paths so there is little to gain by dumping more money into more expensive machines than what is needed to get the job done. I would look very seriously at a 12k spindle for a CAT 40 or the 10K for the CAT 50. Look at SwiftCarb tooling, MasterCam 4X and SurfCam TrueMill for indication of what new is developing. Make your machine decision on the future not the past.
JMHO
Lowell

[Cmailco]

Double column are nice but, what's your budget for this machine? What types of parts do you make? What tolerances?

Regards,
Chuck

[heavycut]

In most cases we are cutting cast 4140. We have our own product line so we are usually making simple cuts in odd shaped castings. (hole making, bore, linear milling, and occasional helical plunge or contour mill) Most of our materials are mid 20's to lower 30's Rc. My budget on this machine is around 240k. The Haas is well under that. Our tolerances are usually no less that +- .0015 so we’re not talking supper precision here. This is what I asked the Haas rep I have been dealing with; I asked him if his machine would be able to take a 2”, two flute indexed stackable endmill (ISCAR) and make a full width, 3” depth cut at .006 chip load? He said that he didn’t know because he doesn’t know of anyone that would do that. That’s not something I do on a regular basis but I have in the past and I want to be sure I can do it again without having to worry about a spindle going out. When I have to do prototype work I must pull an operator off a machine so that I can go in and produce the parts efficiently. When I do that my cuts often can be heavy because I cannot afford to spend time whittling away at raw stock. I’m not reckless but I’m also not afraid to use tooling the way it’s meant to be used.

In response to “underthetire”, I was recently at the IMTS in Chicago and was extremely disappointed in what both Makino and Okuma had to offer. Okuma did not have a single Vertical machining center at the show. I’m not saying they don’t make one but they did not display any and also had little to say about them. And Makino no long makes a vertical. I was told that they had approximately .5% of the market in VMC's so they discontinued its production all together. It’s a shame because the Makino’s I do have are about 25 years old and keeping up with my newer models.

In response to “lkenney”; although the 50 taper is a must, the 10k spindle is really not necessary for what we do. We very rarely machine aluminum or any other non-ferrous metals so high-speed machining is not in the cards (ie over 100ipm and over 8,000rpm). The most need to run my spindles is around 7500 rpm for small hole making. (and that’s not often). The fastest I will be cutting is probably around 150 ipm but that’s using radial chip thinning so the loads are light. I am currently using X4 and will soon be upgrading to X5; I’m very familiar with CAM software. We use about 85% ISCAR tooling and have for about 15 yrs. I have yet to find anything that can outlast their tools. We use other companies for what they Iscar doesn’t supply but I’m always interested in finding new innovative tooling. We try not to be close minded here.

[glovebox20]

Some of the biggest reason's why I wouldn't by a HAAS is there Lack of rigidity, reliability, and accuracy. IF you don't mind slowing down and taking a few extra cuts to hit your tolerance, and resetting the Tool Changer Alarms, they can be nice machine to run. Big doors, user friendly G&M code control, machine enclosure that dose not leak much, and easy chip removal are some of the things I do enjoy about them.

I would rather see a Doosan or even a Hyundai-Kia (VX 500) mill in my shop if I was going with a Low end machine.

My two cents.

[lkenney]

You know that Haas continues to inprove their products and I am seeing a lot of shops that 10 years ago would not have a Haas on the floor buying them in place of other machines. When I ask why the answer is better machines, better control and less cost with good to better support. Support is dependant on your local support for any machine. I know of one brand new Okuma that took 8 months to get operational after delivery and it is working well now but the Haas that sits beside it ran from day one without a hiccup. I think that if you know your tools and program to get the most out of them you can make nearly any machine work well. There are those that will never learn that and they pay in many ways. As I told the OP new tooling and software development have made major changes in what you can and should be able to do with any machine. Those that are still programminbg on the CNC machine are loosing money

JMHO

Lowell

[dertsap]

Haas are good and reliable machines but aren't as solid as the japanese machines , the more recent control panel looks like a puked out pc note pad . But for the price range they are hard to beat
the company I work for has around 20 haas machines from various years , I've only seen them need a couple of repairs over the near 3 yrs I've been with the company

[underthetire]

With that kind of budget, you could buy pretty much any vertical. For that material, I would not buy HAAS. They may be able to cut it, but tool life would suffer from the lack of rigidity. I would recommend as stated before a 50taper machine for the kind of cuts your taking. So, now knowing the material, I would look at OKK, Mori Seiki, maybe a couple Korean machines. Make whoever you decide on to take some test cuts, even if they need to send it to the factory to do it, and have them video it. A lot of distributors may not have a low RPM 50taper machine on there floor, depends on the area. Good luck.

[glovebox20]

Originally Posted by underthetire With that kind of budget, you could buy pretty much any vertical. For that material, I would not buy HAAS. They may be able to cut it, but tool life would suffer from the lack of rigidity. I would recommend as stated before a 50taper machine for the kind of cuts your taking. So, now knowing the material, I would look at OKK, Mori Seiki, maybe a couple Korean machines. Make whoever you decide on to take some test cuts, even if they need to send it to the factory to do it, and have them video it. A lot of distributors may not have a low RPM 50taper machine on there floor, depends on the area. Good luck.

I couldn't of said it better Myself

[Pondo]

I ran a Haas VF-7 and 2 VF-4's side by side with an OKK VP600, VP9000, and 2 VM-7's. The OKK's were down way more than the Haas machines - at least 3-1 as far as downtime - and the Haas machines held tolerances in mold components closer than achievable in the VM-7's. The VP600 is a piss-poor engineered machine all over. The VM-7 was borderline unacceptable of a machine because of it's unreliability and inaccuracy. The VF-7 outshined it in just about every way.
The VP9000 was a nice machine, but it's laser toolsetter needed adjustment constantly. OKK engineers never heard of ergonomics either.
The Haas machines of the past 4-5 years are not comparable to the older Haas machines. They are better machines than OKK's now and cost about half. Disagree if you like, but I've seen it daily for the last 7 years.