Newbie- Haas vs Hurco - yet again

[jasonrot]

I've read several threads on the Haas vs Hurco. I'm personaly interested in a minimill or VM10. The gist seems to be that Hurco has the best super easy conversational programing. But it has, or at least had, reliability problems. The Haas is lighter and not as rigid and this can create some problems. I need the machines for research and development work. Probably mostly aluminum in the short term, but would like the ability to machine hard materials as well.

A couple of questions that I didn't see answered in the othe threads are:
The Haas has a conversational programming option. How does it compare to Hurco's? Has anyone used both?
The type of stuff I do will be pushing the limits of the machines accuracy. How big of a factor will the Haas' lower rigidity be. Since this isn't production work I don't necessarily need to make parts really fast, therefore, could I overcome the rigidity issue with shallower cuts.

Does anyone know if the reliability of the Hurco's has improved.

[universalfab]

Used to do sheet metal work for Hurco, there good machines. I like Haas also and haven't heard anything bad about them. I don't think you'd go wrong with either or.

[Ed_R]

go with the one that has the best service in your area.

[glovebox20]

Originally Posted by Ed_R go with the one that has the best service in your area.

I agree.

I personally think Hurco's are better at shop floor programing/graphics vs HAAS. But if your going to use a CAD-CAM system, I would favor the HAAS control.

Your cutting process (Cutting data, Tool path, Set up, Type of tool, etc.) will have a larger impact of your accuracy between these two machines. Although extra rigidity never hurts.

glovebox20

[Ben Olson]

where do you even buy a Hurco? ......

[jasonrot]

Hurco has distributors nationwide. Not as many as Haas. Haas factory outlet is about 1.5 hours away. Nearest Hurco is about 4.5 hours away. Haas anyone used the Haas intuitive programing option? Is it any good. Everyone seems to think that Hurco's is really nice. Are there issues with using a CAM program with a Hurco?

[underthetire]

Well, we have newer Haas, a couple year old Hurco's, some older Hurco's, and a bunch of high end machines. The HAAS are more reliable than the Hurco's, cheaper for parts, service is actually better for us on the HAAS ( Hurco has no local support). The HAAS control is a good G code control, Hurco is a good conversational control. Some of our high end machines are very good at both.

[glovebox20]

There are no real big issues ruining G-code on Hurco's once you have the proper post for it, it's just more clumsy vs. a true G&M code controller.

HAAS's intuitive programing looks really neat on the out side, but it dose not flow as smoothly as the Hurco's, and It takes more time to master/setup. I haven't used HAAS IPS my self to much, just because I haven't took the time to learn it. I just write my G-codes from scratch. Some day I should break down and fix that. The Hurco's will do more automatic calculations for you which saves a lot of time/frustrations.

glovebox20

[jasonrot]

Thanks for everyones input. Maybe this should be a new thread but I just found out there is a local Sharp dealer.

Any opinion on the SV-2412 or SV-2412S. I've read a little and people seem to like them although they don't seem to be near as common. They have a Fanuc Oi or 18i controller.

[JohnJW]

Regarding the Hurco controller, if I remember correctly they have a g-code option, a few hundred dollars I think, that will allow the Hurco controller to function like any other gcode controller. I think the Hurco controller also comes networking and hd standard, however it runs an embedded windows os. . . i think . . .

My though on the Hurco controller is that in a few years what looks like a fancy controller may become dated and it's easier and cheaper to swap out a cad/cam desktop than upgrading the Hurco controller.. . . but then I don't like fancy graphics on the cnc controller, unless it can do 3d tool path simulation so I am biased.

I went through a similar situation a few years ago when I bought my first Haas. I looked at Sharp, Hurco, Fadal, and Haas. The school I took the cad/cam classes had a Fadal so I was predisposed to Fadals. Being in LA and curious about manufacturing I visited both the Fadal and Haas facility. They are both very friendly and I felt a bit embarrassed because I went in thinking plant tours are daily scheduled event and it wasn't until half way through the tour did I realize my friend and I are the only people in the tour. There was strong contrast between the fadal and haas operation and I thought haas was a better run organization.

I think all the machine tool manufactures have very similar pricing structure, Sharp and Hurco may have some labor advantage with overseas factory, Haas has the economy of scale, at the end factors like, US made and the larger user base gave Haas the edge. If I am spending my own money I don't mind spending 10% more for a US made machine but it's not my money and I have to justify the purchase to the accounting dept, that's when I realized that for any given manufacture I can usually find the right option mix to make it the one with the best overall value for the price.

Base on what I've read online I don't think you can go wrong with a Sharp, a Hurco, or a Haas. However, if you can't decide, just go with a Haas and start machining. There are a ton of other machine tools manufacturers out there but chances are if you don't like the Haas you probably won't like the others in the same market segment.

[Cmailco]

What type of accuracy are you talking about here? Thousandths, microns... more info on what you're actually doing would help. It may be that neither of these options will work.

As for Hurco vs Haas, to me this is like comparing apples and oranges. One is extremely good at being a toolroom type mill that can be programmed quickly without the need for CAM to do more complex parts. If you plan to go CAM anyways, then it changes everything because it takes Hurco's main advantage away; adept shop floor programming at the control with 2D CAD import capabilities.

For prototypes and small R&D runs, that's a pretty powerful capability and once you're proficient at manipulating the Ultimax control, you can program some very complex geometries fairly quickly.

As for the Haas' conversational, I'd just assume program it in g-code. I can't imagine hand coding some of the programs I've written on the Ultimax control... though I use to have to. The conversational is extremely unrefined in comparison but build quality, imo, is slightly better in the Haas. Either is capable of good metal removal rates in aluminum, so that's really not an issue as I see it. Hard milling... well, again, I don't think either is a great machine for that but the occasional workpiece shouldn't be too much an issue. There are ways to get around some of the stiffness issues in the tooling but times when you can't. That said, the Haas is probably the more robust machine but I haven't honestly taken a good look under the hood of a Hurco in some years now...

Best regards,
Chuck

[jasonrot]

I'd like to be able to hold 13 microns fairly routinely on small parts (50 mm). The parts are being made on a Hurco right now. He is able to hold this or a little better.