Newbie- Hass machines help and newbie info

[tgrcnc]

Morning everyone,

Right basically i have been looking over the forums now for about a year, ive been in talks with haas uk about the tm1 (tool room mill 1) and the tl1,vf3

My questions are which would be a better machine to learn with-I'm still new ish to cnc as my current exp is a 6k thrumpf laser and working on a 30 year old mazak to which i have no programing exp! i wish to machine copper,plastics,steels,ali and other metals we use for motorsport plus other projects, I'm learning cad with solidworks tho this is proving very slow and currently looking into cad to cam systems, I'm only a young lad so i dont have have the funds off hand to go buy an all dancing vf3. Which brings me onto next question, what options for all machines would i be best picking to make my learning easier and faster?

How did you guys and girls learn what you know today and how did you make buying a machine work for you, what helped you in cnc and what made it hard,

Thanks
Ben

[dxxx]

the key to learning is making 1000's of setups and running 1000's of jobs.
after that your home free. the machine brand name does not make any difference.

[tgrcnc]

brands not the issue it was wether i would be better off with a diffrent model?

[KenFoulks]

I would argue that the TL-1 is the easiest method of converting to CNC because:

1. IPS (Intuitive Programming System)
2. Can be easily operated manually
3. Low cost
4. TL machines are generally designed for tool-rooms and have easy-to-use features

[tgrcnc]

Originally Posted by KenFoulks I would argue that the TL-1 is the easiest method of converting to CNC because: 1. IPS (Intuitive Programming System) 2. Can be easily operated manually 3. Low cost 4. TL machines are generally designed for tool-rooms and have easy-to-use features

While Hass and a few others agree with you, i was looking for somthing more productivity, with the tm i will have to change tools manualy, i wish to machine copper, ali and whatever other jobs i can get hold of.

[Geof]

Maybe I am presumptuous differing with a Haas expert but I think the best choice could be a Super MiniMill. Forget about trying to run a CNC machine manually like is possible with the TM and TL machines jump in and start learning CNC correctly. Also I say forget about the IPS. Yes it can get you doing things a bit sooner. Some things that is, but it is limiting and you have to learn G-code correctly sooner or later if you are going to use the machine to its full potential.

[littlerob]

Originally Posted by tgrcnc While Hass and a few others agree with you, i was looking for somthing more productivity, with the tm i will have to change tools manualy, i wish to machine copper, ali and whatever other jobs i can get hold of.

T1M6...

there now you know how to do a toolchange, you can still learn a bunch of machining processes with a TM, and cut all the materials you have described. There is A LOT to machining, not just toolchanges. Also, not having an ATC might help you understand what production machining is all about. How fast can you get a tool changed manually?

Robert

[HelicopterJohn]

Hi Ben,

First, Welcome to the CNC Zone. There are a GREAT bunch of guys here that are more that willing to help you along the way. GEOF and others like him are real stewards of the CNC community. They take time to share their knowledge with the rookie hobbyist machinists like myself.

I read you post with interest. You mentioned the TM-1 and VF3 in the same sentence. There is a BIG difference in those machines and their capabilities both in size and performance. I personally own a 2007 HAAS TM-1P toolroom mill and make small parts for the Radio Controlled Modeling Community. I turn mostly Aluminum and Plastics and an occasional steel item.

The TM-1 was an un-enclosed machine here in the USA but with the new models I believe they now are only offered with an enclosure like my TM-1P. Also, the RPM's were limited to 4000 on the un-enclosed TM-1's and the TM-1P has 6000 rpms. I am not sure if the new TM-1 with the enclosure now are at 6000 rpms or not. Also, here in the USA the TM-1's will run on 220 single phase or 220 3 phase power. This could be an issue depending on whether the machine is used in your home garage or in a commercial setting.

You mentioned that you would have to change tools manually. I think HAAS offers an optional 10 position tool changer on its Tm Series Tool room mills. I believe my TM-1P came standard with the tool changer. Also, you can get an automatic 4 position turret tool post that changes automatically on the TL series lathes. Some of the guys like GEOF have even got creative and positioned more that one tool at each position so that they can have more available tools on the turret.

The size of the parts you produce and production requirements will come into play in the decision making of the machine's to purchase.

Just a couple of thoughts!

Machining Forums like this one have helped me along the way. I purchased ONECNC CAD/CAM software when I purchased my machine and use it to program all my parts. I will be 65 in April and have learned the basics of how to run my machine and also the CAD/CAM software within the last 3 years.

John

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by KenFoulks I would argue that the TL-1 is the easiest method of converting to CNC because: 1. IPS (Intuitive Programming System) 2. Can be easily operated manually 3. Low cost 4. TL machines are generally designed for tool-rooms and have easy-to-use features

And I would argue that the only thing really making a TL-1 'user friendly' is the Intuitive Programming Screens. That is just a software option on any of the Haas lathes so, I really don't see the advantage (just presenting an opposing view ).

I have a TL-1 and if I could have all the dollars back that I paid for it, I would push it out in the street and take an SL-20 any day. Not that there is anything wrong with a TL-1 but, the SL-20 with the IPS option is just that much better. I like my TL-1 a lot but, I LOVE the SL-20. It's mostly due to coolant handling and the ease of having a tool changer (no substitute in my opinion). I almost NEVER use it manually. It's just not a very good manual machine. The drag on the saddle is felt in the handwheels. There is no good way to use it manually. The tailstock is awkward and poorly centered until it's locked down.

Of course, the SL-20 is $65K and the TL-1, with similar options (tailstock, enclosure, 3/4 HP coolant pump, a good chuck, a well equipped toolpost, etc) will come out around $30-35K.

The SL-20 is almost our only lathe here at work (except for an old, worn-out manual Acra 13x40). We leave all the basic turning and threading tools in the SL-20 at all times. I don't think twice about walking up to it, putting a part in it and just doing a simple turning operation or single threading job--IPS is just that simple.

I agree with Geof that you must learn G-code in either case. I still find myself sometimes tweaking the G-code that the IPS screens generated. They just save the time of typing out the program long-hand for a simple turning or facing job.

The other choice: TM vs VF? No difference for learning purposes. They program exactly the same. You'll never use the handwheels on a TM, or at least that's my opinion. You can't reach the X-axis wheel without going back behind the control pendant. At that location, you can't see the display for position information.

The biggest difference between the TM/VF is price/performance. You get what you pay for. A well-optioned TM gets very close to VF-2 territory where many of those options become standard equipment.

[Matt@RFR]

Originally Posted by tgrcnc How did you guys and girls learn what you know today and how did you make buying a machine work for you, what helped you in cnc and what made it hard,

Ben, in '07 I bought a brand new VF-2ss with nearly every option Haas offers, and before the day it arrived, I had never touched a CNC machine. I was interested in the subject for many years prior, so I had enough time under my belt on forums like this to atleast understand the lingo.

My suggestion is to NOT buy a machine specifically to learn on, but rather buy a machine for the long haul and learn on that. I dearly wish I had bought a VF-3 now, and that is my suggestion to you. You'll just have to find a good used one. I cuss the table size on my VF-2 on atleast a weekly basis. Even if you're making small parts, you'll never regret buying a machine that is 'too big'.

I also have to agree that learning to write programs by hand is a necessity. I took that advice when I was getting ready to buy my machine and it has more than paid off. If I had learned nothing but conversational programming, I have a hunch that I would have lost out on a lot more jobs just because the flexability and room for creativity just isn't there with IPS or VQC, but you can do just about anything you want to with hand written code (or a finely tuned post processor, or both in my case).

When that thing hits the floor, first find the 5% rapid button, the feedhold button and the E-stop. Those little guys will be your very best friends over the next few years (if not forever!). Whatever you do, don't have your entire family standing there the first time you ever run a program, at 100% rapid, and not knowing how G28 works. The $50 broken endmill, scarred vice and stained underwear are no comparison to the embarassment. Trust me on that one.

My biggest tip, I think, would be to question EVERY line of code on the screen until you have atleast a solid year with your post processor. It's just too damn easy to make a tiny mistake and pay dearly for it.

[tgrcnc]

Originally Posted by Geof Maybe I am presumptuous differing with a Haas expert but I think the best choice could be a Super MiniMill. Forget about trying to run a CNC machine manually like is possible with the TM and TL machines jump in and start learning CNC correctly. Also I say forget about the IPS. Yes it can get you doing things a bit sooner. Some things that is, but it is limiting and you have to learn G-code correctly sooner or later if you are going to use the machine to its full potential.

Hi Geof, thanks for your reply,

Im after all options as hass could tell me anything as a newbie to everything! While i would doult they would you never know!

You do recomend the Super MiniMill? This so i can bypass the manual mode? we do have a manual machine (bevermill,i think!) so manual jobs could be done on there,

What is a IPS Geof?

[tgrcnc]

Originally Posted by littlerob T1M6... there now you know how to do a toolchange, you can still learn a bunch of machining processes with a TM, and cut all the materials you have described. There is A LOT to machining, not just toolchanges. Also, not having an ATC might help you understand what production machining is all about. How fast can you get a tool changed manually? Robert

Hi Robert,

Thanks for your reply,

Granted, tho i wish to learn everything i can, There will be other materials i wish to machine that i forgot to list!


Ive been watching a few vids that are on the forum and they slowest part of this seems to be tool changing.

Ive no idea how fast i can change a tool im yet to learn!

I was considering a machine then when im in a postion to leave my 8-4.30pm i can, but until then the machine could be left with little watch for those hours.