Fadal owners comments

[l u k e]

I know this guy from a different (non-machining) forum and was asking some general questions. He owns 4 Fadals, when I said I was looking at a VF2 he responded with this comment:

FYI: The last Fadal i bought was $23,500 with an 6" 4th axis unit and tailstock , 10k spindle/900ipm rapids and programmable coolent nozzle . Ive never bought Haas stuff because the bed ways wear out before anything else does . I dont mind if a motor or controler board goes out but when the bed ways go away , its a big *** paper weight . Research the difference between older and newer Hass machines and see if they made changes to their bed way material castings . My machine tool dealer told me he could sell me a Haas but didnt really want to because he didnt want to service it . But , that was 5 years ago, maybe they changed things. Reaserch that machine really well before you buy it.

I'm not trying to bash the guy as he was just giving his opinion, but what is it with the animosity between Fadal and Haas owners?

Did Haas ever have problems with bed ways?

[Geof]

As far as I know Haas has always used linear guides not bed ways. It sounds a bit like someone really has no idea what they are talking about.

[l u k e]

Are linear guides rebuildable/replaceable?

[Geof]

I think theoretically, yes linear guides could be replaced but it would not be practical because the machine would have to be totally dismantled. Also I think the life of linear guides is many times that of ballscrews and other components.

[haastec]

I have only had to replace the linear guides 1 time in all my years of service and that was due to severe rusting (neglect). That is not to say that Haas machines never need the guides replaced, but that is just my experience.

As far as Haas vs Fadal, no different than Mori vs Matsuura, Ford vs Chevy, and on and on and on.... It's mostly brand loyalty and probably some good/bad experiences of the individual thrown in also.

Research different machines and compare as best you can the features you are looking for, then look at support after the sale and just as important, the service people you will be dealing with.

Happy hunting and good luck.

[rawen2]

haastec,
How hard of a job was it replacing the linear guides? It seems like the actual R&R of each guide would be pretty straight forward after picking the table up with an engine hoist. Don't the X axis guide trucks (<--correct name?) unbolt through the top of the table? I imagine the hard part would be getting the new guides aligned exactly parallel to their respective axes and ballscrews while still being perpendicular to each other.
Do you remember how many man hours it took for the one you worked on?
I'd love to be a fly on the wall at the Haas factory to see how they do it.
Thanks,

Ralph

[haastec]

It's been about 8-10 years since I did it so the details are pretty hazy. Yes, the bolts for the x-axis guide rollers is under the hard plastic plugs in the table; you can try to tap them and pull out otherwise you will need to drill them. It actually is pretty straight forward for the R&R and I believe that the linear guides locate off of a machined edge to aid in alignment and there are cam bolts spread along the length to fine tune as well.

I don't remember how long it took but I would plan at least a couple of days as you will most likely have something that gives you issues, like that bolt you can't reach easily with the stripped head. LOL

If you decide to take it on, you may want to consider ordering the guide rails in before you start. Seeing the replacement part can sometimes help understand how it all goes together which makes disassembly easier also.

Don't forget to order new plugs for the table also.


Good luck and let me know how things go.

[Delw]

Originally Posted by Geof As far as I know Haas has always used linear guides not bed ways. It sounds a bit like someone really has no idea what they are talking about.

I am guessing the guy is talking about linear guides, that was a big draw back when the machines were staring to come out with them and not using box'ed ways back in the 90's.
mainly the problem was on Lathes cutting stelite, inconels and other nickle alloys.
Hitachi seiki used them on there newer 20s series that came out in 1994-1995While it made the machies a tad weaker and gave more vibration on heavier cuts, the speed of the machine generally made up for it, so people over looked the rigidity iisues( it really wasnt that big of a deal, but every tool dealer that sold box way machines made it known this was a problem with rigidity.

My boxed way lathes yci supermax's would outcut my hitachi's all day long on nickle alloys especially when using ceramics. it took me a few years to adjust my mindset to the LM guides aka linear ways they had there advantages mainly in finish and speed for.

on the mills I ran a hitachi mill with linear guides and it sucked on hard to cut materials compared to a fadal, I believe before hitachi went out of business they used a bigger LM guide as there newer mills were not as bad as the first ones for rigidity.

As far as replacing LM guides I think its easier than putting turcuite on box ways and then scraping the turcite in. I have done both. and frankly guys who scrape in box ways for turcites are in a field of there own, it takes a special knack to get them just right. its more like a real tool and die maker compared to a production cnc shop.
lm guides on the lathes to replace took approx 2 days, in some cases 1 day and you were up and running, box ways to do it right including scraping turcute and grinding the ways you were looking at a week if you didnt have a grinder in the shop to do your own work.

also with LM guides you dont have to fiddle fart around with straps and gibbs every year to keep your machine perfect. the oiling is also much better on linear guides and usines far far less like 3-1 easily

when I bought this VF2ss I tried to buy a boxed way mill, but they just were made in that price range anymore. so I will admit I was leary of the linear guides on the haas. so far I am really impressed. LM guides/ Linear ways have come a long way sence the mid 90's. i will say I am getting ready to buy a lathe and I am still sceptable about getting one with LM guides/linear ways. In a Job shop high rapids are not necc. like in a production shop and your usually spending more time changing set-ups for for the next batch of 25 parts vs running 1000-2000 parts per order.
One other thing on the linear guides is that they dont wear like box ways and turcite does when running 1000's of parts that are small and only using a few inches of table travel. Box ways will get wear spots. I think alot of that has to do with the weight of the turret has .


Delw

[Pondo]

I ran 3 Fadal VMC's and found the rigidity (or lack thereof) to be unacceptable. I could take cuts on a VF-0 that I couldn't take on a Fadal the size of a VF-3.
Other than that, the Fadal controllers were nice with the PC built in for programming at the machine. If you program offline though, that's a moot point.
HAAS beats just about anyone as far as service goes too. I don't know about the guy's machine tool dealer, but around here you buy a HAAS from the HAAS factory outlet (HFO) and not from a multi-machine brand seller. That's all they do - sell and service HAAS machines.

[mattpatt]

Interesting reading.

I have a FADAL 3016 and to be honest it's been nothing but trouble for the last year. I bought it new 2 years ago.

I'm in Thailand, and our promised of backup, service, spares etc just disappeared pretty much as soon as we needed them. Now the machine sits idle with damaged spindle bearings. Considering that 3 weeks ago I sent the spindle off to have the bearings replaced, it's just not good enough. It ran for a total of 5~6 hours after the bearing break in procedure before the bearings went again.

I have the Haas rep coming for a meeting this afternoon.

In my opinion, it's probably more about service backup than which machine is better. I feel very let down and disappointed with the FADAL.