Need Help!- Project! Haas Vector Drive replacement, MOCON board / Brushless Servo Amp interface

[marvinmfg]

Hi,
Thanks for taking a look. I am posting this after making a plea in the technical forums to no avail. I've read some of the posts here and hopefully someone can help.
I've been working on an upgrade for my 2003 Haas TL-1. The control layout is similar to a TM-1 or MiniMill. I want to install an industrial vector drive and a 10HP inverter duty motor as an upgrade to the standard 45A brushless PWM 3 phase servo amp that is currently running the spindle. I've got a plan to change the gear ratio on the belt drive also to provide more torque, but I'm trying to get the electronics worked out first.

The problem I'm having is deciphering the pinouts from the MOCON board to the J2 connector (J3 on a vector drive). There is a pretty good schematic of a Haas vector drive posted on the 'net, but my understanding of logic circuits is limited, and a couple hours of tracing the circuits didn't really get me anywhere.

I've tried to pick up some of the signals with an oscilloscope, but they are all over the place time wise (can't get a clear trace) I just can't tell what architecture Haas is using to control the drive. I'm pretty sure the encoder output is processed by the MOCON board, not by the servo amp directly.

The vector drive I want to use is a Saftronics C10 model 2015, which is pretty versatile. It will accept analog voltage or current based frequency commands and uses 2 or three wire switching to start and stop the motor.

Anybody have any ideas? Wiring diagrams?


Thanks!

[Haas__man]

Hmmm, am thinking that nobody has replied because what you are attempting to do is very difficult. I would suggest that its not do-able - I could be wrong and if you do get anywhere with it then please post any results on here - it sounds very interesting.
The Haas vector drive is specifically used in conjunction with the Haas control software and controlled using parameters in the software of the machine. Using any other type of spindle drive would be a backward step in my opinion, giving you a less responsive control.
Currently you have a 320v Power supply unit and a 45A servo amp. What I would suggest you do is to talk to Your HFO about upgrading your machine to a HAAS vector drive. This would be a much easier upgrade - it's not something that is normally done - but I would say its do-able. The Minimill has the same as you have - a 320V PSu and a 45 amp amp. The super minimill has a vector drive instead. That is the kind of upgrade I would suggest you need.

Hope this helps.

[marvinmfg]

Haas man,
Thanks for your input. I do have an intermediate plan. I have a 60A servo amp that I can install pretty easily to handle the extra current requirements of the larger motor, and it looks like the 320VDC power supply has an unused circuit that I can utilize so the spindle drive won't be daisy chained with the axis drives. I really wanted to upgrade to the vector drive to take advantage of the superior performance, though.

If this was easy, I'm sure everyone would be doing it already. If my pocket book was flush, I wouldn't have a problem ponying up the $4000 for the Haas Vector Drive and related cabling etc. Shoot, I would just buy a bigger, more powerful machine. I have to admit I'm annoyed by being forced to use proprietary replacement parts, and I'm not the only one. I also can't buy a new Haas Vector Drive without paying a huge core charge since I don't have a used unit to return.

I've invested a mere $750 in the Saftronics drive and a top quality 6000rpm Baldor motor. Unlike the Haas setup, the Saftronics drive is completely tunable on it's own. I've been advised that so long as the drive is tuned for a slightly faster response than the Haas control expects, it should function without generating an alarm in the control.

I'll post my progress. I know there is a lot of interest in tweaking more performance out of these machines.

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by marvinmfg I know there is a lot of interest in tweaking more performance out of these machines.

There IS?

Everybody would like more performance but, I would never waste my time or chance that I'm going to blow something up on the Mocon board. If you can't afford a vector drive, how can you afford to risk a melt-down of some other vital component or components?

This sounds like walking through the woods, seeing some unidentified berries and saying, "Hmm...this might be tasty or it might kill me. I guess I'll try a few and see how it turns out."

[marvinmfg]

Greg,
Although CNCZone seems to be the largest forum on the net, I look everywhere I can for technical help with these machines, and I find owners of Haas TL-1s and TM-1s looking for more torque, more speed, faster rapids, etc. There's a few people out there who have posted some really helpful info, but there is a lot more possible.

As far as affording a vector drive, I can. I just don't think $4000 for a Haas drive plus a $$$ motor from a TL-2 plus tech time plus cabling and hardware is money well spent. Like I said, I'd be better off buying a bigger machine.

However, I like the TL-1. I can run certain power hungry parts on it and make a tidy profit simply by using intelligent programming and the right tooling. I see potential for more profit if I can squeeze more torque out of it. A gear ratio change with higher quality belting may be a simpler short term solution. Currently the machine uses a 72T to 24T reduction (3-1), that I can change to a 90T to 25T reduction (3.6-1). That's another 20%, everything else being equal.

If you are the type of person that is going to just blindly start hooking up wires and cables to see what will happen, yes, you stand the chance of torching some expensive components. In fact, you probably don't have any business fooling around with a 320VDC power supply. That, CAN kill you. Never mind the berries.

Obviously this isn't for everyone. Some people aren't comfortable doing the diagnostic work required to understand the control function. But the fact of the matter is that it's just a machine, not magic. Haas chose to use a well established command method that allows them to make their servo amps as simple (read "cheap") as possible, and still do the job. There's no bells and whistles. It turns out that it's not the method used on, say, a Fadal. Much of the work that would otherwise be handled by the servo amp is instead managed by the MOCON board.

Unfortunately this strategy also makes the control somewhat clueless. For example, the control (MY2003) cannot detect an open leg on the motor, nor shut down the drive in the event of a short circuit prior to flaming the IGBTs. All you have is a fuse, which is basically just a fire suppressant. Perhaps the newer controls are "smarter".

Compare this to an Advanced Motion Controls (AMC) S30A40. This amplifier has circuitry which not only detects faults but takes protective action on its own, and will reset itself once the fault is corrected, without damage.

I'm still working on the project in my spare time. At the worst, it will prove to be too much trouble or too much of a compromise to accomplish my goal. However, even if I am unsuccessful, I have the knowledge gained. It's nice to be able to have a well informed conversation with a service tech (No need yet).

Mark

TL-1, TM-1 w/ 4th axis, VF-2B w/ 4th axis

[Al_The_Man]

Originally Posted by marvinmfg Compare this to an Advanced Motion Controls (AMC) S30A40. This amplifier has circuitry which not only detects faults but takes protective action on its own, and will reset itself once the fault is corrected, without damage.

What form does the command take, as the S30A40 is two channel Sinusoidal command input, you need the B30A40 if analogue, there is also a PWM command version.
Al.

[lkenney]

Sorry, It's your machine and your time. Have fun


Lowell

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by lkenney Sorry, It's your machine and your time. Have fun

Wimp.

Your unedited post was right on target.

[marvinmfg]

Mr Quixote,
I noticed that you claimed to understand Tayfun Kusluoglu 's Haas Vector Drive schematic. It's disappointing that you don't seem inclined to share. These forums are supposed to be about benefiting the CNC community with shared knowledge and information. So you ended up repairing your machine by replacing a "board"? I don't think you really understood it at all.
Regardless, you have offered nothing of value here except nonconstructive criticism and support for others who can't stand behind their own words. If you had to take it all back (Lowell) why post in the first place? If you want to laugh and jeer about this, PM each other on your time. This isn't a joke to me.

[marvinmfg]

Originally Posted by Al_The_Man What form does the command take, as the S30A40 is two channel Sinusoidal command input, you need the B30A40 if analogue, there is also a PWM command version. Al.

Al,
Thanks for your interest. The reason I referenced the S30A40 is because so far, the command signal looks like sinusoidal, 2 phases 120 degrees apart. Motor speed varies with frequency, and power output with amplitude.
At first I had it in my mind that the command signal was PWM, so I was looking for the wrong signal.

The interface I'm looking to use needs two functions.

1) Phase detection. The circuit has to keep track of the signal "edge", and have outputs that can close control relays depending on which phase is leading (or trailing) So, outputs for Forward, Reverse, and Stop. The stop function could also be based on frequency (2-3Hz). Commercial phase detectors work really well, but only in a narrow frequency range. I need something that will operate reliably from 2Hz-400Hz.

2) Speed command. This is the easy part, by comparison. I need to change the frequency (2-180Hz) to 0-10VDC. There's some pretty good commercial frequency/ voltage converters available that I use, as well as some special purpose ICs that will do the job.

I'll probably set it up initially with the F/V converter alone for speed control, and lock out the reverse function. The machine doesn't have rigid tap, and I never run it in reverse.

Mark

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by marvinmfg It's disappointing that you don't seem inclined to share. These forums are supposed to be about benefiting the CNC community with shared knowledge and information. So you ended up repairing your machine by replacing a "board"? I don't think you really understood it at all.

Nope, my criticism is constructive: Save a bunch of trouble, use the machine for what it's intended for, make money and buy something bigger; that's my contribution.

I like your thinly veiled attempt at telling me that I don't know what I'm talking about. There is a point where surface mount electronics are not serviceable. I lost the culprit circuit trace into an inner-layer path on the board (passed blindly under some of the ICs) and was therefore, completely unable to diagnose it further. The board is not replaceable as a component and Haas finally made good on the whole Vector Drive to get me running again.

For me to waste any effort on this folly would simply add my time to the sum total wasted on the effort. Lowell's advice was solid and relevant. I'm sorry he chose to delete it. I attempt to contribute in a positive manner. Part of that is steering a person away from something so flawed in basic concept that it will cause the user nothing but harm or financial loss. This is one of those projects.

[marvinmfg]

I'll be thinking about this conversation as I'm watching my TL-1 peel steel at an unprecedented rate. As Lowell said, its my machine and my time, and as usual, I'll have to teach myself. Results to follow.