TL-1 Turret/tailstock question

[hercules]

I am getting ready to buy a new TL-1. I have read that if you get both the automatic turret option and the manual tailstock option the two can interfere with each other causing a crash. Does anyone have a machine equipped with both? If so have you had any interference problems?

Also is it worth getting the coolant system without the enclosure option?

[Geof]

Originally Posted by hercules I am getting ready to buy a new TL-1. I have read that if you get both the automatic turret option and the manual tailstock option the two can interfere with each other causing a crash. Does anyone have a machine equipped with both? If so have you had any interference problems? Also is it worth getting the coolant system without the enclosure option?

If I read your post correctly you have three questions: The answers are; yes, yes and yes.

If you like taking a coolant shower then it is worth getting the coolant option.

And now I will be serious:

Yes in the standard configuration of the TL-1 (or 2) when the machine is homed it is possible that interference may occur between the tailstock and tools in the turret. To avoid this the machine has to be homed using Zero Return Single Axis which allows you to home X and Z then move the carriage away from th tailstock before homing the tool turret.

Obviously because I have answered your question I have a TL machine, TL-2 actually, and I have had interference.

However I solved my interference by moving the home position of the machine so I no longer get interference; but I also have slightly reduced Z travel.

Get the coolant pump and get creative making your own guards to minimize coolant splash and spray, or get the TL-1P.

[WallyL7]

I agree with Geof's reply.

It's been a while since I ran the TL-1, but my last shop was the beta site for the automatic tool changer, and I was the guy that was in charge of that department, so I got to play with it a bit.

There was a LOT of issues with it, which isn't a surprise being one of the first ones made. The damn thing wasn't even cut true to the machine. The tools pointed down when clamped and there was about .006" angle cut on the lower tool holder seat - which is unacceptable! I am sure they aren't that way now. We did throw it back at Haas and put the tool post back on.

That plus the issues with tailstock homing, and whatnot - we decided also that we were faster changing the tools by hand - although when it worked, it would repeat well.

I would probably not get the turret, if I were to get another one. Just my .02

[Geof]

Originally Posted by WallyL7 .....It's been a while since I ran the TL-1, but my last shop was the beta site for the automatic tool changer, and I was the guy that was in charge of that department, so I got to play with it a bit....

Was that the original, original tool changer or the more recent servo-driven toolchanger?

The first tool changer was abysmally slow but it did index accurately and the tool alignment was okay. Mind you after I had finished up modifying the one on my TL2 as described in the thread below it was a bit out of alignment.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=58004

The servo-driven one is far superior if you discount the homing issues but as I mention it is possible to get around that by sacrificing a bit of Z travel.

Actually I think it would be possible to solve the homing issue by moving the home position 5 inches away from the end of the Z travel and then make the Z travel extend from Z-25.0000 out to Z+5.0000 for the total of 30.0000 inches. Haas mills operate in a manner like this where home is at the toolchanger height but the Z axis can move up another 3 or 4 inches.

[WallyL7]

Yes, Geof - it was the original's original. I think it was one of the first 4 they made at all! We were beta testing the TL-1 already, with the post, and they put on the tool changer.

If the newer ones are faster, then I would certainly re-think my previous statement. Like you (and I) said earlier, they are very accurate - I was holding tenth's with minor babysitting.

If you could fix it with the Z home position, and still have all the travel, then it is a no brainer.

[DEAN]

Maybe worth mentioning here is the possibility of a gang tool type setup. Dorian makes a Gang tool setup (Victory CNC Gang Tool and Holders) that will interface with a CXA Q/C toolpost.
Yeah its pricey but looks damn convenient when each bar could be setup for various jobs.
I remember when the TL-1's came out they were listing as a compatible option the Dorian tool turret. This was not a HAAS option.

[maxine]

Is it possible to just take the tailstock off when you don't need to use it? Most say they use them only rarely so you wouldn't have to take it on and off too often?

How hard is it to change the home position that Geof described?

[DEAN]

On my '05 TL-1. It just slides right off the back after removing a couple stopper bolts. Heavy beast though.

[hercules]

Originally Posted by DEAN On my '05 TL-1. It just slides right off the back after removing a couple stopper bolts. Heavy beast though.

That is good to know, thanks.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by maxine Is it possible to just take the tailstock off when you don't need to use it? Most say they use them only rarely so you wouldn't have to take it on and off too often? How hard is it to change the home position that Geof described?

It is easy to take the tailstock off if you are an 800 lb Gorilla.

The tailstock is heavy and awkward and the safest way to take it off is to slide it onto something securely propped up and the end of the machine.

You can take out a couple of bolts that act as stops and slide it a couple of inches further back but be careful you don't lose the little spacer plates that fall out.

Redefining the home position is fairly easy. There is a proximity sensor that detects the carriage position at the back of the bed a little distance from the end. Have a look at the pictures in this thread and you will see where it is.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=50425

Hidden behind the sheet metal there is a little plate that activates the proximity sensor when the machine is homing. You may need to contort yourself a bit to see it.

What I did was add an additional little plate bolted to the sheetmetal so that it activated the proximity sensor before the carriage got all the way to the end of its travel; this defines the new home position.

But there are some cautions:

When the machine homes it activates the sensor by moving past home, reverses direction until the sensor de-activates then keeps going until the encoder gives the Z channel signal. This is a signal that indicates a specific angular position of the ballscrew. Between the sensor de-activating and the Z signal being detected the controller counts the encoder pulses and it is expecting a count that falls within a particular range. There is a value called grid offset in the Parameters which defines this range. If the count is wrong you get a 'grid offset error'.

Before doing anything home the machine and watch the position display, after homing there is a value in the Dist To Go which is somehow related to the grid offset write this number down.

Also before doing anything run the Z to its full travel and set up a dial gauge or something so you can find this position again.

Probably when you first position your plate for the new home you will get a grid offset error, I did; but rather than changing the Parameter I moved by new plate slightly and tried again. Eventually (with luck) you will get it to home; now look at the Dist To Go number and it will probably be different to the one you wrote down. Keep on slightly adjusting the plate position and eventually you will get a number pretty close to the original.

Now you have the new home that is closer to the chuck you need to shorten the maximum Z travel by the same amount so you go into the Parameters and find 33 RATIO (STEPS/UNIT) and 34 MAX TRAVEL (STEPS). The Z axis travel in inches is MAX TRAVEL divided by RATIO as you will see if you do this calculation. Make a record of the MAX TRAVEL value.

Now carefully jog the Z axis to its maximum travel position that you have set on the dial gauge and look at how far you have moved on the Machine position display. Multiply the Ratio by this distance and that gives you the new maximum travel. Turn Setting 7 OFF, push E-stop, position the cursor on Parameter 34, type in the new MAX TRAVEL value and press Write.

Now the machine is set for the new home and the Z travel is reduced to suit. If you need full machine travel all you do is take off your little plate, home the machine normally and replace the original value in Parameter 34.

This almost took longer to type than it did to do it. I hope I haven't missed anything because this is all from memory.