GT-20 or TL-2 with an enclosure?

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm about to get a quote for two new machines. One of them is a lathe. We're suddenly torn between two seemingly different machines: the GT-20 chucker and the TL-2 with an enclosure.

At first, they seem like very different machines but upon closer inspection, they are very similar. The GT-20 only has 12" of Z travel but most of our parts are under 4" long. I really do wish for a tailstock on the GT but that ain't happening right now. They both have similar or identical A2-6 spindles. They both have similar X travel. They both cost (the way we want them) right around $42,000.

These are the pros and cons I see so far:

GT-20

• A real enclosure so we can really let the coolant fly
• The work is closer to the operator so it's easier to setup, load and preset tools.
• No handwheels to whack into the operator.
• A real 8-station tool turret that we can load and preset and always have ready for anything we want to program--plus better repeatability over a toolpost.

TL-2

• It has a tailstock
• It has handwheels for the occasional touch-up job (yeah, we have the jog dial but the handles are convenient).
• It has more Z travel for the occasional long part.
• It has the additional versatility of having a toolpost (more choices of angles & tools--I'm reaching here ).

The way I see it, we still have access to a number of manual lathes and if push came to shove, we can get access to somebody else's TL-1 if we had to do some long parts.

If you had to live with one or the other in a prototyping environment, which would you go with? I thought I knew but after looking more closely at a GT-20 yesterday, I'm not so sure anymore.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey I'm about to get a quote for two new machines. One of them is a lathe. We're suddenly torn between two seemingly different machines: the GT-20 chucker and the TL-2 with an enclosure.... .....If you had to live with one or the other in a prototyping environment, which would you go with? I thought I knew but after looking more closely at a GT-20 yesterday, I'm not so sure anymore.

It is almost a wash; I have a GT20 and a TL2-P and have done one-offs and production on both.

The GT20 does have space for more tools but when doing a setup I find it less intuitive to visualize what tools will fit where so the setup takes longer than the TL2.

The turret indexes much faster on the GT20 and the rapids are much faster so when the one-off turns into 100-off they come off much faster.

With ingenuity it is possible to devise gang tooling on the TL2 and to some extent overcome the limited turret capacity.

However, it is also possible to do the same on the GT20 and you can sometimes leave more semi-standard tools in position with X offset ready to use.

The GT20 has a higher spindle speed and more power so it chews metal away faster. Although I recall a high speed (3500rpm) spindle option is available on the TL2.

The 12 inches of travel on the GT20 is a joke because you lose a few inches to the chuck. (This is something I find really stupid; the tool turret can overlap the chuck. Why? you are always going to have something in the chuck and a tool in the turret.) Functional Z travel is about 8 inches I think.

The GT20 is fiddly to work in and tightening a manual chuck is awkward, more awkward than the TL2.

It is possible to take the handwheels off the TL2, actually I removed the apron and that is where I attach the bracket for a coolant screen. (I am too limp wristed to use the handwheels; the jog wheel is much better for a decrepit old man like me.)

Get the TL2; for predominantly prototype work it is more convenient I think.

[Donkey Hotey]

Thanks, Geof. I didn't realize you had both. Are there any Haas machines you don't own?

I was wondering how much usable Z travel it had. I really, really wish it were 10-15 inches longer and had a way to install a TL-1/2 tailstock. 8 inches does seem kind of limiting.

I don't have a lot of love for my Dorian CXA toolpost. I don't think it's very repeatable when you're making a batch of parts (getting chips in the dovetail). The turret and the serious coolant enclosure are the two biggest attractions for me on the GT-20.

Actually, I'm not entirely sure why the TL-2 is so similar in price. I would think the GT-20 turret would add much more cost than the TL-2 tailstock and less effective enclosure. I added everything else on the GT-20 estimate (IPS, VQC, manual chuck, etc) so it was apples-to-apples. I thought the GT was further up the price ladder and was shocked to see that we really could swing either machine.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey Thanks, Geof. I didn't realize you had both. Are there any Haas machines you don't own? .....

Lots; here is what I do own. (A good a chance to brag )

HL1, HL1-BB, two SL10, two GT20, TL1-P, TL1, TL2-P, TM3-P, GR510, 5-SuperMiniMill, MiniMill, VF-0, three VF2.

The servo driven toolchanger on the TL2 is quite repeatable with fast indexing.

I think the price similarity is partly because the TL2 is much bigger, simply more material, longer rails and ball screws, etc.

The deficiencies in the TL2 enclosure are not serious. As I have mentioned elsewhere I put in extra baffles and I also have some shallow drip rays underneath. It is my feeling you would find the size constraints and the setup awkwardness on the GT20 more negative than the enclosure deficiencies on the TL2. In addition you can work on fixing the coolant leaks but it would be a real trick to stretch the GT 10 inches.

[alain aleman]

I don´t know that TL-1P, TL-2P exists, please post some pics about this.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by alain aleman I don´t know that TL-1P, TL-2P exists, please post some pics about this.

Go to the Haas website, or go through the Haas forum here; I have posted several pictures of both machines over the past year or two.

[Donkey Hotey]

This is the best photo I've seen of it:

[john whidden]

Geof, how do you find the SL 10 and GT 20 compare?

I also can't find anything on the TL-1P.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by john whidden Geof, how do you find the SL 10 and GT 20 compare? I also can't find anything on the TL-1P.

The differences between the SL10 and the GT20 are more tool capacity and the possibility for a tail stock on the SL10. We do bar stock on both and our SLs are equipped with more tools and do a greater variety of parts than the GT20. We never use a tailstock.

The SLs do have a much faster maximum spindle speed but we never use it because they are fitted with bar feeds that rotate with the spindle. This limits us to about 3000rpm but it enables use to advance the bar without stopping the spindle so overall the cycle time per part is shorter.