Tool Room Lathe Chucker (HPCL)

[HAILINHAAS]

What are your thoughts on this type of small lathe.

[SeymourDumore]

HailinHaas.

I think it is nice for the right application.

Here is the same questiom though:

What are YOUR thoughts on this kind of small lathe?

http://news.thomasnet.com/images/large/011/11539.jpg

I mean if there is a market ( even if a perceived one ) for 4 different versions of a toolroom lathe, what does the "Corporate Wishdom" say about one of those?
Mine has not seen many days off in 3 years.
Is it possible that between multiple versions of routers, toolroom mills, toolroom lathes, office mills, office lathes, slant bed lathes, VMC-s, HMC-s, pallet changers, barfeeders, rotary tables, indexers.... Is it possible... Is it concievable that there is just not enough room for a solid Gang tool lathe?
Specially when 90% of the hardware, 100% of the electronics and 100% of the software is in existence?
Possible that Omniturn can survive with nothing but? SNK ditto? Can Haas not absorb the re-initiation costs?
Just what is the reason behind retiring that machine and never to be mentioned again?

Seriously. Can't tell you much on the HPCL, but can write an essay on the MiniLathe.

Sorry.

[Donkey Hotey]

I thought it was discussed quite a bit in other threads here. This is my impression (which might be totally wrong--but this is how I view it after many hours spent in the Haas booth at Westec, online and drooling on brochures):

The TL-1 could be equipped the same for $8K less, give every bit of performance and always have the option of larger parts. It's limited to 2K but I'd bet that 3K is a parameter change away (especially with a collet closer).

I just don't see the market in the HPCL--except that it returns the punch by Hardinge for copying the Haas rotary products so blatantly.

Did I miss anything? Really? I love to learn. If I missed some incredible capability that it has, please enlighten me. I like Haas products but I can't see it's purpose in life. I'd rather see a Haas-controlled EDM (man, that'll open up a can of worms ).

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey .....I just don't see the market in the HPCL--except that it returns the punch by Hardinge for copying the Haas rotary products so blatantly.....

That was the story given to me; Gene got his nose out of joint so he made a product to compete directly with Hardinge.

[SeymourDumore]

Well Geof.... Here is my take on it.

First off, I am a Haas guy. Have 4 machines and a rotary, will be looking at more later, specially that new ST30.
If the HPCL was a poke at Hardinge, then I think it missed the mark. It does not appear nearly as robust as a Hardinge chucker, which is what makes them so incredibly indispensible. Without the accompanying 8-station turret on a Hardinge, it is even less versatile.
Don't know how much the skinny ways effect accuracy against the Hardinge chucker, but mine is a 1966 vintage and .0005 overall repeatedly is a non issue.
Doubt the HPCL could do that in manual. Maybe, but doubt it.
The Hardinge style is also used for their gang machines. Stout ways, slides, spindle assy little bigger but robust. Great great CNC gang machine, albeit small on X travel.
Somehow I don't see the HPCL in it's current, slightly wimpy incarnation as a competition for that.
In manual mode it is a little tight to handle, just like the TL-s. The slide has a limited travel, so it can mostly be used for second-op only, and even then only a limited # of tools.
Use it as a precision toolroom lathe? Don't know as I have never actually tried it. Perhaps that would be it's saving grace.
My chucker gets the fussiest stuff put on it, albeit only in manual mode. I also use it for all kinds of little stuff that comes up in a jobshop anywhere from cleaning a rough piece of stock to making a multiple step fixture pin to +/-.0002 tolerances, turning the head on a bolt, manually tapping something really crappy crap, repairing screwups or just doing precision cutoffs.
For that though the Hardinge is just the ticket.

It's just my opinion but I'm dumb as a stump.

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm a pretty happy TL-1 owner. I've had mine since November. It's my first CNC lathe but it replaced a pretty nice Cadillac (Yang) 16x40 manual lathe. I worried that I couldn't do the 'quick cleanup' type jobs on it but I've gotten pretty good with setting it up and running it.

Last night, I chucked and recut the spheres on some brass ball/lugs that came out slightly out of round (Tool Nose Compensation issues). I located them, ran them and tuned those ball surfaces to get them into spec.

When I was done, I turned some beams against a center. They were made in the mill with round stubs on each end. They needed to be trued and shaved a bit for assembly clearance. No programming: just turning handles and starting/stopping the spindle--a manual lathe job.

It's not perfect but I sure like what it does--especially for the money. The operations I've just described are what I see the HPCL being intended for. I still don't see its advantage over the TL-1.

I shut down the TL, pretty darned satisfied at what I've done with it in 4 months. This morning, I tried to fire it up, only to have the 325V DC power supply pop a capacitor inside the cabinet. Good thing it's still under warranty.

[HAILINHAAS]

"The TL-1 could be equipped the same for $8K less, give every bit of performance and always have the option of larger parts."

Good point. I guess they price it higher because of space saver.

I wonder if it was priced @ $19,999.00 if it would generate the demand for them.

I think they're a great entry cnc machine.

The tolerance on them are pretty good too.

Tailstock taper cut is < .0005 over 10"

Spindle taper cut is < .0002 over 4"

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by HAILINHAAS The tolerance on them are pretty good too. Tailstock taper cut is < .0005 over 10" Spindle taper cut is < .0002 over 4"

I don't believe any of those claims anymore. I don't want to rain on the Haas parade or sound like I'm whining but my brand-new TL-1 couldn't match its claimed inspection sheet after a 99 mile trip to my house.

http://www.cnczone.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49147

[HAILINHAAS]

[QUOTE=Donkey Hotey;430917]I'm a pretty happy TL-1 owner. I've had mine since November. It's my first CNC lathe but it replaced a pretty nice Cadillac (Yang) 16x40 manual lathe. I worried that I couldn't do the 'quick cleanup' type jobs on it but I've gotten pretty good with setting it up and running it.
QUOTE]


I read your blog about your problem ... and it had me baffled ... I know they test cut every machine before it leaves. They do a tailstock taper cut over 10" ... they must of got a good taper or they wouldn't send it to the customer like that .. or at least I hope they wouldn't. That problem still bugs me. I'm wondering if the linear guide lifted, is loose or something happened during transit .. did you notice anything odd with the packaging when the machine arrived. Haas packs them pretty nicely .. you might of noticed if something did happen

[Donkey Hotey]

I don't want to hijack this thread but to answer your question:

The machine was spotless and wrapped tight when it arrived. However, it did have a bunch of hours (more than a hundred...I can't remember exactly) and about 1,000 M30 counts. So it had been doing some kind of testing or whatever back at the factory. I wonder if it hadn't been properly leveled while that went on and if it might have been resting on three legs as the casting aged.

I've had it parked on three legs for a couple of months now. I'm still trying to un-twist it. We'll see.

I should also post this in its own thread because I mentioned it elsewhere as a problem on this TL-1. It's not really worthy of a thread so I'll post it here in hope of righting the bad information:

I had considerable power problems with the machine when it was delivered. It popped my sub-panel and main panel breakers on every control start-up. I had to run outside, reset the breaker, then run back in to get it to start before the capacitors leaked back down. I posted this as being a potential problem buying single-phase machine (TL, TM, OM, etc).

Being intermittent, it was a tough problem to diagnose. It was mentioned at installation but it was suggested that I had a power problem, not a machine problem.

Yesterday morning, the problem ended with a small explosion from inside the control cabinet. The Torrance HFO had a tech inside that cabinet 5 hours after I called them. The 325V DC power supply (does the job of the Vector Drive in the low-HP machines) had cooked itself.

They express shippped a brand new one from the factory. Another tech was there this afternoon and installed it. He checked everything else to make sure that was the problem. Absolutely no more problems with blowing breakers. She started up and shut down three times in an hour without a wimper from the circuit breakers.

While he was checking things out, I peered through the cooling grate on the blown one. A circuit trace right next to the incoming power connection had exploded off the board. It ran from the connector to the high-current rectifier block.

It looks like the rectifier was partially shorted from the factory and took this long to finally cause some identifiable damage. From the look of the board, it had been cooking for quite awhile before the catastrophic failure. I understand that electronic problems are hard to track down--especially like this one. It's just a matter of all of the thousands of components going in: some of them are bound to have problems once in awhile.

So to set the record straight: a 40 Amp Haas machine will run just fine on a 50A, single-phase circuit. If it doesn't, there is a problem with the power supply inside the machine. There. I posted it. Neither I, nor anybody will ever need that information because it will never again happen on this earth.

I'm really, really glad that this happened under warranty. Still, everybody was 'Johnny on the spot' with fixing a lowly TL-1. Thank you to the Torrance HFO for a job well done.

[1ctoolfool]

To me this is the perfect size lathe having used a TL-2 which can't even chuck on a bar smaller than 3/4" OD, but I agree on the cost argument that no one is going to buy this machine when you can get a TL-1 for 10K less.

However, for the certain customer like me who wants the functionality of the TL-1 without the size and I love 5C, only use a 3 jaw once in awhile. I like to have my face right down there on those little parts and I don't want a chuck sloggin my noggin. Plus one major feature which you guys missed is the standard C-axis on the HPCL not even offered as an option on TL.

It's the perfect lathe for a prototype shop, but the price is just too high.
I belive the Hardinge dig might be somewhat true but remember the base price on a new HLV is $50K for a MANUAL lathe. Of course they claim .00005 (fifty millionths) but I don't need that.

I think most people would opt to go up slightly to a GT10 or SL10, or down slightly to a TL1

It sounds like they may be discontinuing this lathe.

[Donkey Hotey]

Originally Posted by 1ctoolfool To me this is the perfect size lathe having used a TL-2 which can't even chuck on a bar smaller than 3/4" OD,

That seems to be a problem with the tooling selection, not the machine. There are plenty of collet noses for the TL-2's A2-6 spindle, including 5C.

I have a Royal 5C lever closer in my TL-1 right now. It's long enough to get away from the headstock and it flings a lot less coolant than the jaws on a chuck. The only bummer is that the one I selected is not 'dead length.'