SL10 dies yet again

[PBMW]

Bout every two months or so, my SL10 will puke it's little guts out. This time when I started it this morning, I get a low hydraulic pressure alarm and an X axis fault alarm
Ran just fine a week ago.
Wonder how much it'll cost to get it to run so I can get it the Hell out of my shop.
I've already talked to my Daewoo dealer. He has a 240SMC waiting in the warehouse. I've owned this machine for almost two years. I've spent over $15k in repairs. Never again.
I ain't even B!tchin anymore. I'm just disgusted with it

[Donkey Hotey]

Are they the same problems or different ones? We have an SL10 at my 'day job'. It doesn't have a tailstock and admittedly, it does sit quite a bit, but I don't think it's had anything but PM since they bought it three years ago. They hit the power switch and it fires right up.

They ran a batch of 4130 parts just the other night: turned, faced, bored, single point threaded and had a spherical back profile they did as the parting operation (required just a little cleanup with a file--impressive). No problems with the machine.

How many 'in cut' hours do you have? I'm really curious because I could see purchasing an SL10 someday.

[PBMW]

I bought the machine (it's a 2004) in April of 2006 with about 400 hours on it. It has I think about 1500 hours on it now. Those are in cut hours. Aside from the service issues, it's thrown low lube alarms that no one can figure out why. It's started throwing X axis alarms every now and then when starting up. Then it's fine. Now it's throwing low hydraulic alarms and X axis alarms and will not home without alarming.
I've owned machines since the early eighties. I ain't new to this. This is by far the worst boat anchor I have ever owned. We won't even talk about not holding tolerances...It had NOT been abused. It has spent much of it's life cutting alum and light cuts on stainless.
Failures on this machine have just been one thing after another.
I ain't bashing on Haas either. I have a Mini Mill that just keeps on making me money. Day after day. Steady diet of steel and stainless. Just keeps running.
But this lathe is a dog and it's OUTTA here. Would I buy another one? Not based on my experience...

[Donkey Hotey]

Wow, that's too bad. When this stuff fails, do they actually find things wrong or are the problems intermittent?

The reason I ask is I wonder if you might have a problem with one or a few of the logic boards. That could give you all kinds of percieved problems but nothing is actually wrong.

It just doesn't make sense that the SL10 would have the problems but other models wouldn't (seen lots of anti-SL10 posts in here). The modular nature of Haas machines ensures that almost every part in that SL10 is in some other machine as well.

Are you confident that your repair people are competent?

[Geof]

Originally Posted by Donkey Hotey ....(seen lots of anti-SL10 posts in here)...

I have to interject here:

Two SL10's; one about five years old one about three years old. Used almost daily since new, between them they have about two million tool changes, both are fitted with barfeeds and they spend their time making round bar it little parts. Both have needed the coolant pump replaced, one we replaced the hydraulic pump because it lost pressure; this was a bit embarassing because I subsequently discovered there is a pressure adjustment knob on the pump and I had spent a few thousand dollars needlessly. Both machines hold +/-0.0005 without problems and +/-0.0002 is possible but they have to be babyed.

I suspect PBMW and I represent the opposite ends of a spectrum.

[PBMW]

I don't doubt it for a second Geof.
I've talked to the big wigs at my reseller. I'm actually looking at three new machines for next year an dthey are in the running. I realize that this is just a machine that got out the door on Haas.
Here's my issue. This machine has had issues from day one. Yup, it's out of warantee. I've called the factory so many times, they are on my speed dial. I have never, not once, gotten them to return a call.
The mark of a company is made in how it handles customer satisfaction. I did not purchase this machine new. It had, as I recall, about 400 hours on it. It has never held tol very well. It has never run for more than two months without something major breaking. I got a lemon. I realize that. I have another Haas machine that is just fine. I'm not buying any more, not because of the machine so much as the complete and utter lack of integrety displayed to me by the factory. I had an exceedingly bad service experience that I was disputing. My other Haas needed service and the factory refused to send parts because my other service issue was in dispute. That has now been settled to the complete satisfaction of both myself and my reseller. But to withhold parts over that was unacceptable.
Whether my issues are caused by a logic board are completely immaterial at this point. This machine is out of here.

[Geof]

Originally Posted by PBMW ..... I had an exceedingly bad service experience that I was disputing. My other Haas needed service and the factory refused to send parts because my other service issue was in dispute. That has now been settled to the complete satisfaction of both myself and my reseller. But to withhold parts over that was unacceptable....

Yes that is unacceptable.

Supposedly people at Haas monitor this Forum and you would expect they could pick up some hints. I think they are displaying the same type of attitude the big US auto companies had years ago; "we are the biggest, we are the best, customers will buy our products now matter how crappy we treat them". It does work in the short term but the big three found it didn't work in the long term. Pity really.

[PBMW]

It is Geof
I like the control. It's easy to operate. It's logicaly laid out. It's easy for someone with little experience to get comfortable with. I was planning a mostly Haas shop. I will be spending right at $1.7m next year on new machines. They obviously don't want my money. I think it's interesting that many people that are looking to start a shop look to Haas as just about the only option. What I have learned in this adventure, is that Haas is most assuradly not the only game in town. And, as I said, much as I'd like to snivel about Haas, (not really) my 2000 mini with over 12k hours on it just keeps on making me money. It hasn't seen any alum in two years.
Just keeps on going.

[Donkey Hotey]

The sad thing is that you don't get to pick your HFO and sometimes you can't even pick your tech because some seem to be assigned to certain zones: that can make all the difference. The factory can be like that too. I've talked to some very talented and helpful people out there. And a few....well...not so much.

The 'maintenance' on one of my software packages proved to be just next to worthless becasue of the guy I was assigned to. The few times I called, I got answers that made no sense or were in conflict with how the machine is supposed to be run (tool offsets in the control vs software). It came down to paying for support that I just wasn't getting. I dropped it (and solved the problems on my own).

These are damned complicated machines but have you considered buying the service manual and doing your own diagnostics and maintenance?

I had a vector drive die with very low hours. I learned more than any owner should ever know about that thing but this is an example of what I learned:

• The internal DC power supply and the capacitors are available from Newark.
• The IGBTs and Rectifier are available as used surplus (with warranty) from numerous suppliers.
• The contactor is also a standard part
• The only part NOT commercially available is the logic/control board (which turned out to be the faulty part in mine)

Google and part numbers on the parts can be your friend.

You mentioned low hydraulic pressure and X axis alarms. Here's what I would do if it were my machine:
Check power to the hydraulic unit to make sure it's powering up. Check the fluid level. Check for leaks. I might even invest in a mechanical gauge to verify pressures vs what the switch thinks. Check the wiring from the switch. I'm just guessing because I don't have one but I'd say the switch connects to the I/O board on the lower left corner of your cabinet. Trace that wire and make sure everything is plugged in.

As for the X axis alarm, you've got a Z axis amplifier in the machine. I'd swap them. Does the problem become a Z axis alarm? Yes: bad amplifier. No: motor or wiring. Or I'd pull one out of the Mini Mill to see if that fixed it. Also: verify the wiring from the Motion Control Board to the axis amplifer. Check the crimp connectors at the amplifier. If it's the motor, you might find sources online where you can get it for less money.

If it turns out to be the amplifer, I'd also verify that the ventillation fans are doing their job and that the air filter is clean and flowing. The tech might be fixing the breakdowns but not fixing the cause.

Time is money and you might not have time to mess around with yours. I'm not 'making money' yet with mine so I had time to learn about its innards. It was time well spent IMO (with any brand of machine).

[PBMW]

I have become quite adept at serviceing my own machines. Well...not me, but my maintanance guy. And yes we have all of the appropreate service manuals. I'm allready calling my Daewoo dealer to trade this machine off on a twin spindle live tool machine he has sitting in his shop. I'm not investing one more dime into this thing.
We have spare servo amps, motors ...yada yada. I have no more patience for this piece of crap

[Donkey Hotey]

I'm sorry (and just a little bit worried) to be reading this. Having just purchased my second Haas machine, it's bad to see an otherwise happy customer (your Mini Mill) shaken so bad as to sell it just to get rid of a productive SL10.

Still, if you were closer and I had more space and cash, I'd still consider taking a chance on it.

I have a very long winded story about a BMW motorcycle that had 746 miles on it. The owner had terrible running problems with it since new. It had been in for service three times at two different dealers. They all gave it a clean bill of health. He sold it to me at a loss. I knew something was terribly wrong when it stalled within 100 feet of the guy's driveway.

I got it home and found that the very first dealer had done a faulty carburetor service and reassembled it improperly. I had it fixed in 15 minutes (literally). I also had proof that most or all of the service he had been charged for (receipts he gave me) had never been done.

The point is that something could have gone wrong during assembly or during one of the services. If it's used, you don't how many chimps had been inside that cabinet before you got to it.

You could have a ventillation fan installed backward (wrong airflow across components for proper cooling). You might have a nicked harness. There might be one connector with a corroded crimp joint.

Whatever it is, there has to be something wrong with that machine that is fixable. You're in business to make money, not troubleshoot it, but somebody will chase the demons out of that thing and get many more years out of it.

I've read here that people can't hold tolerance with them but that's relative. I live in a three-place world where holding tenths isn't even repeatably measurable with my tools.

A twin-spindle Daewoo sounds like an upgrade in any case. Let us know how you like it compared to the Haas. Who knows? I might share your feelings about Haas in a few years.

[PBMW]

I bought this machine for a fair price. Don't get me wrong on this though. I've made money with it. It's just that it is not reliable. That in itself is enough for me to get rid of it. It screws up my schedule. I had a job to go on it the other morning when it took it's last crap...that job was run on my Daewoo. Job done...
I know I could troubleshoot this machine. But why? In the end, I'll have a machine that won't hole .0003. Plus OR minus...
Perhaps I've expected too much from it. I come from Moris, Okuma,s and Nakamura Tome's. When I started my shop again this time, I made the mistake of going cheap. Not that that's a bad thing...but it's a compromise. My parts are getting more complex. I do have a line of parts that are plus/ minus/ three thou on the dias. But the machine wouldn't run.