Door locks? this is crazy.

[gixxergary]

We were going to purchase a new machine. I recieved my quote, and this letter stating the NEW door lock details for a new lathe. These "features" are going to render this machine nearly useless for our job shop. I cut and pasted some of the letter, but couldnt get the charts to load up, so if anyone would like a copy of this , just send me an email. It appears, that they have removed any and all ability to run anything with the door open. 50 rpm, no axis travel and no turret index what so ever?????? (in a program cycle) The NEW version of their safety features, removed the ability to change settings and parrameters all together, to get the machine to function.
Im afraid this is going to be a deal breaker. I think this is why the used market is crazy expensive right now, but unfortunately, this is whats going to have to happen. I can forsee this killing sales of new equipment for a couple of years, then the restrictions being lifted, making these restricted machines worthless!
I know, I know, all the manufactures are going this route, but it doesnt make it right, and I have haas's on my floor, not japanese machines.

Their letter:
All Haas turning centers are now equipped with locks on the operator doors and a key switch on the side of the control pendant allowing the selection of a lock/run or unlock/setup mode. Generally, mode selection affects how the machine operates when the door is opened.
This new feature replaces the following settings and parameters within the control:

Setting 51, Door Hold Override

Parameter 57 bit 7, Safety Circuit

Parameter 57 bit 31, Door Stop Sp

Parameter 586, Max Door Open Sp RPM.

[broby]

Unfortunately this "crap" is what they call "Occupational Health and Safety" and should you "tamper" with this and then have any kind of accident that results in a serious injury, you WILL be toast!
The manufacturers are doing this to protect Their arse, in the process making the operation of the machine damn difficult for the user.

I so understand where you are coming from, but you are going to find it tough to overcome these operating restrictions.
Goodluck.

[djr76]

The joys of living in a sue happy society. Just a yr. ago they came in my shop and put caution stickers over all the machines. Guess some ppl who shouldn't be running a stapler let alone a turning center, don't know that a rotating chuck going 2000 rpm is dangerous as hell.

[hub]

I'm working in R&D doing different machines (not CNC though).
The thing is, any machine needs UL/CE etc approvals. Those require safety issues among many many other things. All our machines have interlocks on every door and cover for that reason.
Yes, it sucks for the user but there is no choice.
But, the interlocks are generally very easy to bypass. But the manufacturer will not have any responsibility if someone gets hurt because they have been bypassed. Just my 0.02$

[underthetire]

Yep. Laws changed Jan '10. And most builders are making it harder and harder to bypass. You will be hard pressed to find any machine now that doesn't have the new standards, unless it's a Chinese machine.

[hub]

Yep. Laws changed Jan '10. And most builders are making it harder and harder to bypass. You will be hard pressed to find any machine now that doesn't have the new standards, unless it's a Chinese machine.

I would have to disagree with manufacturers making it harder to bypass. That would be bad for business. Most just make them good enough, so that they pass all approvals needed.
I know for a fact that our customers will bypass every machine. Otherwise there would be too much time lost. And in some cases, very hard/impossible to setup/adjust the machine.
The point being, all safety locks should be there and functioning from factory. But if the user alters it, it's on their responsibility. Covers the back of the manufacturer from legal action.
And yes I agree that laws suck and makes things more expensive..

All that makes me think of manual lathes.. They are not protected much if at all. From time to time I read arms being ripped off.
I'm wondering how they could pass any safety approvals. Guess they have none..

[gixxergary]

We just cannot legislate ourselves out of stupidity! Whats the next step, no opening or closing of the chuck with the door open?? How about, powering off of the machine to open the door?? Im curious now, will they allow the tail stock to advance with the door open??
This has got to be slowing down the builders sales outlook. At the same time, Ive been pricing out used machines. Are these folks really getting 80 to 90 % of the original selling cost of a 7 to 10 year old machine???? Ive got an 01 SL20, that I paid 54 grand delivered and installed on my floor, along with a few other goodies thrown in, back in 01. Ive have called several used places that have that same machine for sale, asking anywhere from 39k to 49k. I thought the fair market value of that machine would have been upper teens to low 20's. Wouldnt it be great, if we could use these machines for 10 years for free???? Sorry, just venting here!

Gary

[hub]

The problem is the law.. And people suing..
I heard this story (no idea if it's true or tale but good anyway). Some guy had a big camper van; put the cruise on and went to make some coffee; of course the thing crashed and he got badly hurt. He sued the manufacturer, and got something like a million $. Because the user manual did not say that "cruise will only maintain speed, the driver still needs to drive and make sure it stays on the road".

[tooldude328]

They keep trying to idiot proof everything... the problem is they keep making better idiots!!

What ever happened to common sense?

[SumDumPhuckr]

Unfortunately...It isn't that common ~

[extanker59]

The problem is the law.. And people suing..
I heard this story (no idea if it's true or tale but good anyway). Some guy had a big camper van; put the cruise on and went to make some coffee; of course the thing crashed and he got badly hurt. He sued the manufacturer, and got something like a million $. Because the user manual did not say that "cruise will only maintain speed, the driver still needs to drive and make sure it stays on the road".

Check it out on Snopes.com. It's false.

I do agree that they should make it possible to run with the doors open. When I'm running a probe cycle in the program, I like to check the location of the tip when it touches on some very small surfaces that you can't see from outside. Other occasions too.

We just ordered a VM-2. Does this have the same issue?

[Machineit]

The problems with these laws and those who write them is the unintended consequences. They never consider them or simply fail to see them.

The more you try to protect the idiots from themselves, the dumber the idiots become, and the less they take responsibility for themselves.

It becomes a downward spiral that ends with chaos. Wait for the licensing of operators and the systems to train them etc. It will burden business's in to bankruptcy.

I saw an auction in eBay yesterday for a Haas machining center and there was a telling note to the buyer at the end of the description of the machine. The note said that whoever the truck driver was that came to get the machine was required to be licensed to drive a forklift in the state of-------Michigan!!!! You wonder why the state and Detroit in general is going down the drain in a rapid fashion????

I was once licensed in California. That did not make me better to drive a forklift, just got more money for CAL OSHA.

I am in a small complex here in Florida now and only about 20 people here for various business's. But, we have 6 forklifts here and never any accidents.

Rules do not make safe conditions, people who know that they are responsible for their actions do.

The dumbing down of society and the loss of what used to be "Common Sense" is the result of these rules.

Sorry for the rant----Mike