Haas TL3...Should I Buy One..?

[B&T Ltd]

Greetings from Manchester, England.

I'm hoping the good folk from this forum can help me. I'm looking at purchasing a Haas TL3 to assist my well established engineering shop.

Although it is essentially a 'toolroom lathe', it will be used mainly as a production machine, cutting batches of 200 off's in both mild steel and high tensile also. Most of the work will be chucking, and lots of threading involved too. We also produce a lot of bolting in super duplex materials. This is why I've opted for a machine with 1.5m length as I will certainly need 1m of it quite often. No real precision required. 0.010" tolerances are normal, however occasional 'turn for grind' shafts needing tolerances of 0.002" over the full length of the machine may crop up occasionally.

The main reason I like this machine is for its swing, as we will be facing spectacle blinds.

I've opted for the 8 station turret, which I expect to be quite solid as this is something that Haas excel in.

Anyway, having read through these forums I've read a few horror stories about chatter, taper and dodgy tailstocks etc....Can somebody please put my mind to rest..? I really like the look of this machine. My alternative option is a Harrison Alpha, but it's 10 weeks delivery..! I can't wait that long....Any advice would be gratefully received.

Cheers, Richard.

[hercules]

I have had one for a couple of years now and it has been a great machine. It just runs and runs and runs. Definitely get the tool changer.

[B&T Ltd]

Thanks for that Hercules..! Finally what appears to be a good genuine comment on this machine. Having been reading this forum for several months before actually posting, I often wonder how many posts are actually bull**** from competing machine tool dealers..!

However, if anybody does have a genuine comment regarding this machine's tendancy to chatter and taper, I'd still like to hear about it.

Thanks.

[Geof]

I doubt that few, if any, posts are from competing machine dealers and I think you are showing a premature tendency toward impatience. First probably not many members have TL3s and can comment, second your post is only two days old.

I have a TL2 and have no problem machining just over a meter in length between the chuck and tailstock to better than +/-0.002"; actually I think the job I did was better than +/-0.0005".

The smaller TL machines (1, 2 and possibly 3) cannot take heavy cuts at large diameter in any material simply because they are direct belt drive and do not have a gearbox to provide good low speed torque.

Regarding chatter it is easy to make things chatter if you try turning stock unsupported with two or three diameters sticking out from the chuck. Chatter is largely due to the operator failing to work within the capabilities of the machine and tooling. Same thing with taper, it is always possible to adjust the tailstock to minimize taper.

The TL machines are not really suited to production work because they have slow rapids and and spindle speed. But if you are working with largish diameter round bar and need the spindle bore available on the TLs they can be a much more economic choice than the larger, fully enclosed machines.

[Seltzer Customs]

TL is a great lathe we run a TL2 at our shop for most of our production turning parts. One thing we did opt for I can say idk what would happen if we didnt have it is we have a sliding shroud over our TL2. Keeps the collant in! I can only immagine thease lathes without a shroud. But yes slower rapids and not the greatest on heavy cuts. Our only real tolleranceing issue is without a tailstock we are always looking at taper. Generaly only maybe .001-.002 over 6" but still significant enough to make you check the parts theroly. Tool changers are another great option keeps things moving. we run a 4 post. changer. All in all its a GREAT machine for light production and ease of use. Conversational is simple and easy. Id say try it before you buy it. Everyone needs something different from a machine. but immo just a great all around lathe for the everydayer.

[hercules]

Ditto with the comments above as far as taper and chatter goes on my TL-3. I've regularly cut meter long alloy shafting with total taper below 0.001 no problem. When the lathe was first delivered I was getting 0.003 taper per foot but the Haas set up rep came back (no charge) and zero'd the tail stock in better and no taper problems since. And I agree with Geof that once I figured out how much of a cut I could take on the lathe I haven't had chatter problems. As he says, the cuts I use are also light. For example on some meter plus long shafts I am running now I am cutting 50 thou a side in a 4340 prehard shaft with WNMG or CNMG coated inserts (cutting dry). That works well and yes even though the rapids are a bit slow it fits my needs just fine. By the way at those conditions the load meter is running about 55% in low gear so I could probably play around and push it up harder. But for me there is really no need, other machines do the higher speed work if needed. I have also been cutting some threads on the TL lately that are about 2.5" axially in some 4" diameter 316 stainless plugs and it does just fine with that too. Last year I made a run of 125 2" diameter titanium threaded plugs and it did OK there too. It's not a production machine but for jobs like those mentioned (relatively low volume, not time ciritcal, light cuts) it fits my needs very well.

Cheers and good luck with your decision!

[B&T Ltd]

Cheers for those comments....

The bulk of the work I will be doing on the machine is 130mm diameter and 100mm long. These items are mild steel. I expect to be able to take roughing cuts of 3mm a side...This machine has an 18hp motor so surely it can handle that.?

Other items in T condition materials are much smaller, so smaller and lighter cuts will do, and I don't anticipate any probs screwcutting.

With regards to the slow rapids, that being 3.8 mpm on Z and 1.8 on X, that's not a problem. We're not into shaving seconds off run times, and it's less stressful on the slideways and ballscrews..!

A lot of our work involves some very deep internal grooving, I'm well tooled up for this, but this is one operation that this machine must be able to handle......It's a tricky decision to make...!

[double a-ron]

3mm/side?! 130mm stock?! With 18 hp?! So in Colony units that's about an .125" D.O.C. on a 5" workpiece. My 20hp Haas would have a hard time with that. If those are the cutting parameters your accustomed to maybe you should think about the "extra performance option" that bumps you to 30 hp. Seriously though, the more I read what you want the more I feel you would be happier with an ST-30. 30hp, 3" bar capacity, 30" centers. Just my thoughts.

[Geof]

....ST-30. 30hp, 3" bar capacity, 30" centers. Just my thoughts.

Quoted from his first post; This is why I've opted for a machine with 1.5m length as I will certainly need 1m of it quite often.

In "Colony" units he needs 39.37".

[B&T Ltd]

Thanks double A-Ron, but as Geof says I do need to use this lathe as a centre lathe, as well as a chucker. We have a wide range of work so I need it to serve many purposes.

Have to say though, we have an old Ward 10 turret lathe, with a 10HP motor that has no problem with 4 mm a side cuts, the same on our Harrison VS450 CNC lathe, although that just about manages 3mm a side.

Sorry about the metric talk.

[Geof]

Comparing a Ward 10 to a TL3 is like comparing a Clydesdale to a Shetland pony. I know, I started my life as a Fitter and Turning running big Herberts; 6" diameter cold rolled, 3/8" deep cut at 0.01" feed!!!!

The lack of a gearbox is a disadvantage on the TLs but that is part of the reason the price is low compared to the size of the machine. You just have to wittle large diameters away with smaller cutters and it is not too bad; I have done 6" cold rolled on my TL2 at depth of about 0.03" and a feed of 0.005" running at around 600 rpm (going from memory).

Similarly on a big old turret machine you can plunge immensely wide grooves in one cut but on the TL you will have to wittle them out with a narrow(er) tool.

One advantage with Haas lathes is that they have Spindle Speed Variation; this allows you to programme a cyclic change in the rpm which can reduce or even eliminate chatter. You set an up/down rpm range and a time period so, for instance, your speed can vary +/-50 rpm above and below the programmed speed over a time period of say 5 seconds. This works with normal turning and with the threading and grooving canned cycles.

[double a-ron]

Is it a geared head lathe? If so it's like our 7hp LeBlonde, it'll destroy our haas on low end power but at max rpm (1600) it can't touch the cnc. Unfortunatly, large stock diameters are run at an rpm range better suited to a geared head lathe which is why I sugested a 30 hp machine.