Should I go Haas And Hows the service

[onemanband]

Hi everyone
I am looking into getting one of two Haas machines a Mini Mill 2002 or a TM2 2006. I was wondering if anyone could tell me how they like their machines? Also since both machines are used How is the Haas service in Michigan? If I call the HFO will they help me over the phone? If I should need someone to fix my machine would you recommend the HFO or someone else local to southeast MI.
sorry to ask so much from Ya'll but this is a big investment for me and I am trying to become as informed as possible

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[little bubba]

Since you are asking, and I'm unsuccessfully trying to get to sleep, here is my advice.

If you are worried about it breaking, don't buy it. At the shop I used to run, I had several folks come around to visit who owned Haas's. They always asked about our machines, and the inevitable "Hows the service?" comes up. "don't know, they don't break", and my salesman brings beer.

Since you are tight on cash, check out other brands, I find that Haas's really hold their value, so you may be(probably) overpaying for what you need. You may be able to get 10X the machine for half the money.

[JoBwan]

onemanband,
The shop I work at has 18 Haas VMC machines. Ranging from TL-1, to Minimills, to VF-10's. I do 90% of my own repairs, by calling the service dept. at the HFO. They have a great "over the phone" tech. support group down in Cincinatti. I live in N.W. Ohio, and my local service tech comes from Fort Wayne In. The only problem I have is that the tech NEVER has the parts on hand, and he is very prone to replace un-needed parts. Once the part has been installed, and didn't fix the machine, Haas still expects me to pay for those parts. Also, since he didn't have the parts on hand, they want to charge me for a second trip charge at $100.00/hr. X 4 hours of driving. I have many times called Haas in California and disputed the fact that I did not need all of the parts. And they knew what the problem was, when they came out for the first trip, so they should have had all of the parts to repair it, when I've waited 4 days for them to arrive on the first trip. Their accounting dept. has worked with me on a number of occasions and made it right. I WILL pay for what is right. I firmly believe "the first trip is my dime, the second trip you can find another sucker to pay." Gerotech from Detoit area is a good Haas representative, but I can not use them, cause "they are not in my jurisdiction". I have used Gerotech for Mori Seiki repairs and they do a good job for me. IMO, Haas is the way to go for the money and reliability and over the phone support. Just keep your guard up, when a serviceman does have to come out. Good luck deciding!!

[onemanband]

Thanks for the input I like to hearing that the phone support is good. And it sounds like you are able to fix most things which is a plus for a one man shop.

[Donkey Hotey]

I find that Haas's really hold their value, so you may be(probably) overpaying for what you need.

That's good advice. I realize that if you only have $30K, no amount of convincing is going to get you to $40K. I'm a 'used' guy myself. Almost all of my equipment and 10 of my 11 motorcycles were bought used. I've never bought a new car.

Despite that, the used value of Haas equipment blows my mind. You have to be very careful.

I was close to buying a used TL-1 back in November. It literally had 1:45 of run time. That's one minute and forty-five seconds of run time. I think the total power-on time was 2 or 3 hours. The only downside is that it was a late 2003 model so I was going to be buying a 4 year old control and software. I figured, "What the heck? How much could it have changed?"

Well, lemme' tell you: I bid it to $16.8K and another guy bid $16.9K. And that's all the money she was worth in my brain. I still had to move it (at my own risk) and install it and run it with no warranty, etc, etc. It didn't meet reserve.

I contacted the owner. He told me that the guy who bought his TM-1 was also buying the TL-1 and he claimed that he got $20K for it. Great for him, bad for the buyer.

I called my friendly Haas sales guy and with promos going at the time, he put a brand-new, August-2007-built TL-1 in my shop for $23,600. $1750 of that was sales tax and $600 was delivery (I couldn't have rented my own truck and forklift to move the other one for that little). So the machine only cost me $21,250: $1,250 more than the used one!

The difference? The other one had a chuck ($900), Dorian tool package ($850), coolant pump ($800) and collet closer ($1500). I had an 8" chuck, figured I could buy a used tool post and make a decent coolant pump/tank and work something out on the collet closer.

What I got for my extra money? Delivery to within an inch of where I wanted it. Setup. A USB port instead of floppy drive. A gorgeous 15" LCD monitor instead of the old 10". The latest Intuitive Programming software (many, many upgrades and changes--more than Haas documents or admits to). And a warranty. Did I mention the warranty? If something on the other one got bumped in transit and it didn't work when it arrived, it was my problem. If this one didn't work, it's the HFO's problem. It truly was well worth the difference.

In the end: I found a shop on eBay that had bought an outfitted TL-1 but only used it for plastics and wood. They sold their Royal Collet Closer and Haas coolant system to me for a little over $700 total. The stuff was brand-new. I got my Dorian toolpost and all of the blocks I needed from eBay. I've got a nice, new machine. I'm a happy guy.

Tread very carefully in the used Haas market. There are some bargains but be sure that you've considered all the costs and risks with each deal.

[PBMW]

I have a 2000 mini. It has a small envelope. But what it does, it does well. I have no complaints about that particular Haas. Service in my area is abysmal. They woll charge you two or three trips. Never have the parts. Yada Yada. They once sold me an A axis motor for my SL10 that was not needed at $1250 plus labor to install.
With Haas, what I've discovered is that there is more bang fror the buck elswhere. I bought a Sharp 2412s mini with box ways, 10k spindle and 10 real world hp instead of 7.5 Haas power. 12 tools, flat conveyer and you can get one for $38k
It will run RINGS around a mini. It will run rings around a VF2. My point is...you can do better. In a year nad a half, I have had zero issues with my Sharp. My mini is also reliable but my SL10 breaks every 60 days. Like clockwork.
I was going to buy a super mini (Haas) but they pissed me off so much I went looking for an alternative. I found one that works well in my shop.

[ltmquik]

I have purchased three (3) Haas VMC's in the past year and a half. All of the machines shipped when we were told they would ship and arrived earilier than expected. All of the machines worked after power and air were installed. I have had only minor issues while none of the issues have caused any downtime on the machines. The service we requested has been outstanding. Haas even follows up via telephone to ensure their service reps are providing adequate service.

This is how I would expect all manufactures to be. I was completely dissatisfied with our other machine manufactures service and support. They also ship machines that DO NOT work when they arrive.

[onemanband]

wheew here i thought stubbling across this forum would make my choices easier. Boy was i wrong LOL. I appreciate all your input even the guys who dont really like the Haas machine seem to be saying what i already assumed that you get what you pay for. If you pay 20000 for a machine dont expect it to last for ever. But it sounds like overall the service support system is good. which seems to be a plus i've heard of it taking up to a week to get service from other companies.
Has anyone used Gerotech for service on thier Haas?

[Geof]

I figured it was time to stick my nose in.

I bought my first Haas, a little used HL1 lathe, in 1999 and in March 2000 bought my second, a new VF0.

I cannot remember the last time we needed any service on the HL1. The VF0 has over 4000 hours on the spindle and 143,000 tool changes and the last service it needed was about five years ago when a connector vibrated loose on a pressure sensor.

I have a total of 19 Haas machines, #19 was installed a few weeks ago; obviously I am happy with Haas.

I will admit if you are working all the time with stainless or alloy steels or you need +/-0.0001" precision maybe Haas is not the correct choice. We do 6061 and C12L14 with the occasional bit of C1018 and rarely need to get better than +/-0.0005"; only one lathe part needs us to stay within +/-0.0002" and this requires a little bit of babying while the machine warms up.

[JoBwan]

wheew here i thought stubbling across this forum would make my choices easier.

Onemanband,
LOL. You just have to do some homework to see what is best for your needs and here was a good place to start. HFO Midwest is doing some re-structuring within their organization, and it seems to me, that it is getting better than it was a year ago. You're right though, It is a tough decision when your talking that kind of money. Again, good luck and happy hunting for a machine. I agree with Geof, I like Haas.

[Geof]

You need a lucky break like I had.

I was thinking about changing my company over to CNC, we make our own products and I had started in 1986 with all manual machines. At a Haas demo day early 1999 at our local HFO there was the HL1 there with a for sale sign and less than 400 power on hours; the previous leaser had gone bankrupt. Nobody wanted it because it did not have a tailstock; I did not need a tailstock. I bought it for a song, as the saying goes. Then having learnt programming on the Haas control I figured why change to another make.

That is one point you could check out...the Haas control...it is very user friendly.

[PBMW]

Onemanband
You haven't told us what you are going to cut on this machine.
When I bought my Mini, I had planned on about 80% aluminum. It's worked out to be about 80% stainless. It does fine as long as you realize it's a little machine with not a lot of power
I would buy another (I think) if I had the need that it fulfills. One of my gripes is the way Haas rates hp. Haas rates power at 200% for 30 seconds. My Sharp is rated at 7.5 hp and 10hp at 150% for 30 minutes. That is a huge difference
I have a part where I out a .187 wheel (4.0 dia) through a oiece of 1018. I have to run it at about 300rpm or it will stall. My sharp will do the same cut at 120 rpm and I get much better tool life
The mini (and TM) are built of weldments. They are not very rigid.
I would never buy another Haas lathe. But even at that...I'm not a Haas basher. They make the machine they make and if it works for what you do, then that's the machine for you. But my point is that Haas has for a long time marketed their machines as a price point. They have marketed their machines to people that are buying on price. There are better choices, that will give you a more rapid return on investment. Personally, I would look very closely at service. I would call around ot other shops that have Haas machines and ask them some very pointed questions about service and reliability.

[Geof]

...The mini (and TM) are built of weldments......

This is not precisely correct: The base of the Mini is a weldment but the top structure is several castings bolted together.

[PBMW]

You are quite correct Geof.
I was amazed though to hear the difference in machines taking the same cut. Same feeds and speeds. Same cutters. same everything. The Haas is a lot noiser. The Sharp is just quiet.
I like box ways...
So, it really does make a difference what your intended use it.

[JoBwan]

Guys,
I also think this needs to be considered. Do you need a Mercedes to make a part for a Pinto and make $20.00, or use a Cadillac and make the same part for $18.50? Or, you can use a fadal and spend $10.00 LOL.


Sorry for the fadal Joke, I have 4 of them also.

[Geof]

...Same feeds and speeds. Same cutters. same everything. The Haas is a lot noiser. The Sharp is just quiet......

Speed?
Feed?
DOC?
Cutter?
Material?

I agree it is possible to make the Haas dance around; I have done good cuts on hot rolled steel by keeping the speed and feed fairly high. I think you saw the thread where I had pictures of the part buried in bright blue chips. I was just wondering how it works out for rate of metal removal between what I did and your conditions.

[PBMW]

I do a part for the crab fleet in Alaska.
It's a brake caliper for a winch. 1018.
Doing it on my Haas, 2500 rpm, about 28 or so ipm. .25 DOC and .1 radial DOC
The Sharp goes 7700 rpm, .375 deep and .375 radial DOC at 105 ipm
Some of the time on the Sharp it's full radial engagement. The Haas protests at that.
No coolant
The Haas dosen't like it very much and the Sharp eats it up
The Haas can put down some impressive material removal rates though. You just have to program it differently.
The Haas, being so small, is faster on programs that use a lot of tools though.

[Geof]

....The Sharp goes 7700 rpm, .375 deep and .375 radial DOC at 105 ipm....

......The Haas, being so small, is faster on programs that use a lot of tools though.

Yes, the Sharp has the oomph to spin the tool faster; the Haas certainly lacks in torque. But you have hit on exactly the reason the Haas Super MiniMill is useful for me; six to ten tools are common for my parts and sometimes the cut time per tool per part is only two to five seconds. Fast rapids, quick tool changes and quick spindle acceleration are important to me. Also the ability to overlap spindle acceleration with the rapid move back to the cut makes seconds of difference which adds up.

[ttrans]

Go for it my friend. I just got a vf3 install before christmas and the support were excellence. I used vf4, vf5 BT50 and the OE BT40 in the past very happy with them.
although i like to see Haas machine have the feed rate overide dounw to 0 button so i can slowly turn it up to 100 % if i have to. other wise HAAS please.

[onemanband]

I plan i doing cold roll and aluminum and through all of your's input think the Haas will be a good fit. (even though the sharp seems faster) I think for now i'll buy the taraus of the machine world. Good solid machine at a fair price but dont expect it to last forever or win any races lol.
For the table size i think I've choosen the TM2 and I think I'll make some mods to address the coolant flow issues. Even though I haven't hear much about Gerotech as a service company it seems that over all Haas does a good job picking the dealers that represent them so i'm pretty sure when i need service they will be there.
Thank all of you again
Onemanband