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    Default Mini Mill question

    So I have very little machining experience, learnt everything online searching , here and most of all Youtube.
    Its taken me from absolute zero , to doing ok. I am making some watch buckles
    Mini Mill question-mar_0058-edit-jpg

    It has not been easy, nor am I under some illusion that I can make parts and give up my day job.
    Basically it is like this. I have a job, but also I started a business (watch brand) back in 2009 with first watch on sale late 2011. So I have a product and a market.
    It has cost a bomb and not working out due to me paying in Australian $ and buying parts made to my designs in Euro. Its pivot time.
    I bought a Wabeco 1410lf hs mill from MDA Precision and while I know its kind of a hobby machine, maybe a step up just, it is an entry point into CNC and to see if I can do it.

    So to the question.
    I am at the point that I can make parts and now going to make what I planned to make and that is the watch case itself.
    For this I will get some help, but there are three parts I need to do. Middle case pictured
    Mini Mill question-p3023270-jpg

    the case back and the bezel on top on the watch.
    All from 316l and grade 5 Ti

    Is the Haas Mini Mill the right choice if that is the budget?
    Basically I would get the tool changer, the probe option and the biggest fastest spindle if I can afford, but thats about the extent of the budget. If I cant make these parts, this business is done.

    Any suggestions are welcome.
    I am in Australia by the way, so our prices are not friendly prices like the USA. Add a zero! (well almost) so A VF2 is not an option.

    A used on here from 2008 or so is the same as a new one in the States.

    So would the Mini Mill do the work, given the small-ish budget and the fact that it needs to go all day and all night long, since it would be the only machine I would have making those parts.?

    Similar Threads:
    Last edited by Aegir; 10-03-2017 at 10:26 PM.


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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Hi....and just what is your budget?

    Buying the mill is only part of the deal.......the tooling for whatever the spindle is will dictate how deep into mortgage depth you go.

    I think practically any small mill will cut stainless as it's the after work like polishing that takes all the time.

    You're quite right about the machine tool cost in OZ.......Machinery House sell one starting at $20k.....bare machine........+ delivery.

    If you're considering an ATC option too and some sophisticated CAD/CAM software.......sell all the family jewels as it will take a bundle to get to that point.........you'll have to sell lots of watch thingies to even break even this side of a couple of Xmases away.
    Ian.



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    Gold Member LeeWay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Can you make it work on your current machine? If not, what issues are you having?
    Rigidity, manual tool changes, backlash, Cam problems, fixturing, etc...
    I would say that since you already have a machine, stretch its limits. Can you make it?
    If so, then a better machine may justify itself. Assuming your sales could handle it. Don't make the mistake of assuming that the more I produce, the more I can sell attitude. That is not always the case, especially in niche market products.
    That may very well be the case though. I know there is a good market for custom watches.
    Have you outsourced to your limits? Can you possibly get them made cheaper, but keep the quality?
    I am just touching base here with some of the questions I ask myself before every machine purchase or build. Hopefully it may be helpful.
    Good luck with whatever you choose, and let us know how it goes.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
    So I have very little machining experience, learnt everything online searching , here and most of all Youtube.
    Its taken me from absolute zero , to doing ok. I am making some watch buckles
    Mini Mill question-mar_0058-edit-jpg

    It has not been easy, nor am I under some illusion that I can make parts and give up my day job.
    Basically it is like this. I have a job, but also I started a business (watch brand) back in 2009 with first watch on sale late 2011. So I have a product and a market.
    It has cost a bomb and not working out due to me paying in Australian $ and buying parts made to my designs in Euro. Its pivot time.
    I bought a Wabeco 1410lf hs mill from MDA Precision and while I know its kind of a hobby machine, maybe a step up just, it is an entry point into CNC and to see if I can do it.

    So to the question.
    I am at the point that I can make parts and not going to make what I planned to make and that is the watch case itself.
    For this I will get some help, but there are three parts I need to do. Middle case pictured
    Mini Mill question-p3023270-jpg

    the case back and the bezel on top on the watch.
    All from 316l and grade 5 Ti

    Is the Haas Mini Mill the right choice if that is the budget?
    Basically I would get the tool changer, the probe option and the biggest fastest spindle if I can afford, but thats about the extent of the budget. If I cant make these parts, this business is done.

    Any suggestions are welcome.
    I am in Australia by the way, so our prices are not friendly prices like the USA. Add a zero! (well almost) so A VF2 is not an option.

    A used on here from 2008 or so is the same as a new one in the States.

    So would the Mini Mill do the work, given the small-ish budget and the fact that it needs to go all day and all night long, since it would be the only machine I would have making those parts.?
    How long have you been using the Wabeco 1410lf ??? this is a good starter machine, and should be able to do all the work you need, even in reasonable numbers, fixturing is key to machinng parts like this I see that the watch part in the photo has been cut out of stock, which is a good way to do these part, you may need a cnc lathe to do the watch back, but is doable on the mill

    Your question, would a Haas Mini-Mill do the job, yes it would, If I was you though I would use the Wabeco 1410lf to the max before moving forward, with the right setup this machine should be good to get you up to speed manufacturing lots of parts you need, may take more machining time, but you already have this machine that you need to use to the max

    Mactec54


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    Gold Member LeeWay's Avatar
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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Right. It sounds like you have been disappointed either by the pricing of outsourced parts or by your limitation of the equipment and software you have.
    Machining parts of any size requires some education. Not necessarily formal. You can teach yourself because of the internet and having a machine already. You found the Zone, so you are prepped for that aspect if needed.
    Some guys here will certainly help out. Specific questions are of course the easiest answered.
    Tell us about the software. Controller, vise etc.. Specific issues are general to a lot of machines. Poste em.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by handlewanker View Post
    Hi....and just what is your budget?

    Buying the mill is only part of the deal.......the tooling for whatever the spindle is will dictate how deep into mortgage depth you go.

    I think practically any small mill will cut stainless as it's the after work like polishing that takes all the time.

    You're quite right about the machine tool cost in OZ.......Machinery House sell one starting at $20k.....bare machine........+ delivery.

    If you're considering an ATC option too and some sophisticated CAD/CAM software.......sell all the family jewels as it will take a bundle to get to that point.........you'll have to sell lots of watch thingies to even break even this side of a couple of Xmases away.
    Ian.
    60k would be the max I could go. I can get a Mini Mill in Aus for that, but wondering if thats my best option. Tooling would have to be ''acquired'' as I go. Start off with 5 or 6 holders



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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by LeeWay View Post
    Right. It sounds like you have been disappointed either by the pricing of outsourced parts or by your limitation of the equipment and software you have.
    Machining parts of any size requires some education. Not necessarily formal. You can teach yourself because of the internet and having a machine already. You found the Zone, so you are prepped for that aspect if needed.
    Some guys here will certainly help out. Specific questions are of course the easiest answered.
    Tell us about the software. Controller, vise etc.. Specific issues are general to a lot of machines. Poste em.
    So yes the current machine can do the work, as I am cutting 316 stainless now. I was in fact taking a full depth of cut (3mm) at 350mm/min , but the finish was not so great and I had to do too much work by hand removing tool marks etc.
    I have been building up to this point of making cases, as my cases come from Germany and the lead times are too long, they cost too much and if there are any issues, the time taken to rectify them are too long as well.
    Have approached a few companies here, buy they want just as much to make the parts and have no experience doing them.
    I have OneCnc but have stopped using it and now use Fusion 360. The Wabeco uses Mach3 and is a very good machine, but the table is too small to cut buckles and watch cases at the same time.



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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    How long have you been using the Wabeco 1410lf ??? this is a good starter machine, and should be able to do all the work you need, even in reasonable numbers, fixturing is key to machinng parts like this I see that the watch part in the photo has been cut out of stock, which is a good way to do these part, you may need a cnc lathe to do the watch back, but is doable on the mill

    Your question, would a Haas Mini-Mill do the job, yes it would, If I was you though I would use the Wabeco 1410lf to the max before moving forward, with the right setup this machine should be good to get you up to speed manufacturing lots of parts you need, may take more machining time, but you already have this machine that you need to use to the max
    Had it 3 years, only started using it 2 years ago and really only been working consistently on it for the last 12 months. So truthfully, it is better to say I have had it a year. I like the machine and no doubt in can do the work, which I will be finding out in the coming weeks, as I stripped the table last night and will be setting the watch case fixture up today. Basically it is a proof of concept (that I can do it) then I want to run this Wabeco making buckles of several types on the same fixture , leaving it setup for long periods. I have a market for the buckles and while sales are slow now, they will pick up and that machine will be busy. I found that if I slow it all right down, then I can take the part to the wet grinder (small bench top one) pop them in for a couple of hours and then touch them up with some sand paper on any spots left, pop them back in for 30 mins, then I can put the finish on them. brushed, blasted etc. That means that machine will have no spare time. The Wabeco is paid for, so my train of thought was, the buckles coming off the Wabeco should pay the loan on the Haas, or at least a good part of it. I can afford to pay for it if they do not, so either way it is covered.

    For fixtures , this is where I am exposed very quickly as a super novice. So for the watch case setup I am using a base plate with 2 mitee bite expanding clamps that I can machine at different depths to hold the case both sides and the other for the case back and bezel.
    I have a forth axis for the Wabeco, so am doing the same on that (one clamp) to do the sides of the watch case and maybe bezel work as well if I can. I run this from my garage and would like to add the other machine in thee as well, and I know the Mini Mill runs on 240v, which is ideal.
    I could put 3 phase in, but then I may as well find a new space if there is some monster machine being installed. Plus the budget of course!



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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    I had a Haas Mini Mill delivered in June and put it into production work in July. I love it. It is a car payment but easily covers its own cost. ROI is probably close to a year on this. Maybe a little longer depending on other aspects.
    Good investment for us.

    Lee


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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
    Had it 3 years, only started using it 2 years ago and really only been working consistently on it for the last 12 months. So truthfully, it is better to say I have had it a year. I like the machine and no doubt in can do the work, which I will be finding out in the coming weeks, as I stripped the table last night and will be setting the watch case fixture up today. Basically it is a proof of concept (that I can do it) then I want to run this Wabeco making buckles of several types on the same fixture , leaving it setup for long periods. I have a market for the buckles and while sales are slow now, they will pick up and that machine will be busy. I found that if I slow it all right down, then I can take the part to the wet grinder (small bench top one) pop them in for a couple of hours and then touch them up with some sand paper on any spots left, pop them back in for 30 mins, then I can put the finish on them. brushed, blasted etc. That means that machine will have no spare time. The Wabeco is paid for, so my train of thought was, the buckles coming off the Wabeco should pay the loan on the Haas, or at least a good part of it. I can afford to pay for it if they do not, so either way it is covered.

    For fixtures , this is where I am exposed very quickly as a super novice. So for the watch case setup I am using a base plate with 2 mitee bite expanding clamps that I can machine at different depths to hold the case both sides and the other for the case back and bezel.
    I have a forth axis for the Wabeco, so am doing the same on that (one clamp) to do the sides of the watch case and maybe bezel work as well if I can. I run this from my garage and would like to add the other machine in thee as well, and I know the Mini Mill runs on 240v, which is ideal.
    I could put 3 phase in, but then I may as well find a new space if there is some monster machine being installed. Plus the budget of course!
    There are other machines as well before a Haas leap, you have the Tormach cnc mills which would do the job also, and take up a lot less room and money

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    There are other machines as well before a Haas leap, you have the Tormach cnc mills which would do the job also, and take up a lot less room and money
    I looked at the Tormach 1100, which is basically what I have now in terms of travel , power etc, with the exception of its tool changer. It would cost roughly 40k here in Australia, compared to 60k for the basic mini mill from Haas, with probing system, tool changer and rigid tapping.
    Its not a great leap from 40 to 60, as LeeWay mentions below, ''its a car payment''. Get past 60, then things change.
    So the Wabeco 1410 is maybe more basic than a Tormach 1100, but the same kind of thing. I am wanting to take it a step up in terms of its production capability, service, resale should things not go so well, so on.
    So I like the Tormach, I certainly have considered it, but I figured I would be buying more of the same.
    Maybe the Haas Mini mill IS more of the same, and I guess that was my question



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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
    I looked at the Tormach 1100, which is basically what I have now in terms of travel , power etc, with the exception of its tool changer. It would cost roughly 40k here in Australia, compared to 60k for the basic mini mill from Haas, with probing system, tool changer and rigid tapping.
    Its not a great leap from 40 to 60, as LeeWay mentions below, ''its a car payment''. Get past 60, then things change.
    So the Wabeco 1410 is maybe more basic than a Tormach 1100, but the same kind of thing. I am wanting to take it a step up in terms of its production capability, service, resale should things not go so well, so on.
    So I like the Tormach, I certainly have considered it, but I figured I would be buying more of the same.
    Maybe the Haas Mini mill IS more of the same, and I guess that was my question
    You are right, if you go with the high speed spindle, though you will need 3Hp power, the standard runs fine on single phase power, Then a better deal is to get the Mini-Mill2 I have both and the Mini-Mill has been great the Mini-Mill 2 is quite a lot better, you need a good compressor to run these machines as well, with good dry air, having more than one water trap in the line is a must, one near the machine take off and one somewhere else in the line, with auto drains are best, and as I said if you go with the super Mini-Mill or the 2 you will need 3ph Power

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    You are right, if you go with the high speed spindle, though you will need 3Hp power, the standard runs fine on single phase power, Then a better deal is to get the Mini-Mill2 I have both and the Mini-Mill has been great the Mini-Mill 2 is quite a lot better, you need a good compressor to run these machines as well, with good dry air, having more than one water trap in the line is a must, one near the machine take off and one somewhere else in the line, with auto drains are best, and as I said if you go with the super Mini-Mill or the 2 you will need 3ph Power
    Thanks for that info. I assume you mean the higher speed spindle needs it to run



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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
    Thanks for that info. I assume you mean the higher speed spindle needs it to run
    Yes 3ph for the high speed spindle, they are 15Hp which is what the Supper Mini-Mill or the Supper Mini-Mill 2 have

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by mactec54 View Post
    Yes 3ph for the high speed spindle, they are 15Hp which is what the Supper Mini-Mill or the Supper Mini-Mill 2 have
    Thanks, I would not have been aware of that. However, looking at the SMM, it is a 10k USD jump straight away without the faster spindle. I couldn't do it and get the other things I want. I would love twice the hp over the Mini Mill, but maybe another time.
    So it would have to be 7.5hp mini mill, and that brings me full circle to the original question, which was really saying, is the Mini Mill a huge step up from such a thing as the Wabeco 1410 or since people recognize the unit better, the Tormach 1100, or more of the same?
    If more of the same, is there something out there at 48K USD (thats what an optioned Mini Mill would cost me) that would be superior . It will run all day every day, making the same things. At least that is the plan.



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    Default Re: Mini Mill question

    Quote Originally Posted by Aegir View Post
    Thanks, I would not have been aware of that. However, looking at the SMM, it is a 10k USD jump straight away without the faster spindle. I couldn't do it and get the other things I want. I would love twice the hp over the Mini Mill, but maybe another time.
    So it would have to be 7.5hp mini mill, and that brings me full circle to the original question, which was really saying, is the Mini Mill a huge step up from such a thing as the Wabeco 1410 or since people recognize the unit better, the Tormach 1100, or more of the same?
    If more of the same, is there something out there at 48K USD (thats what an optioned Mini Mill would cost me) that would be superior . It will run all day every day, making the same things. At least that is the plan.
    If the Tormach has similar travels, then it would be more of the same as what you already have, just a more compact size than the Haas, the Haas is much more robust than both and the benefit of a tool changer, is it worth the extra money only if you have the work for it, that can make it pay for it's self, if you go with the Haas take a good look at the Mini-Mill2 this would be my choice as the best machine to buy in your case, they have a 7.5% off right now if you where buying new

    Mactec54


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