New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank


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Thread: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

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    Default New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Hey guys,

    Im a complete newb to the VMC world and just upgraded my Tormach. While im waiting for HFO to get some training setup Im going through tutorials and whatnot to learn what I can.

    Something I cant figure out is if this "Spindle Air" is suppose to be always blowing. It seems to be a huge drain of air keeping my compressor running frequently. I havent run any programs other than the initial spindle break-in so I dont know if its just the scenario of being on thats keeping it active?

    Opening the air cabinet, its definitely the "Spindle Air" solenoid supplying air but I dont know if theirs another solenoid at the spindle as well. I would assume so at least.

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    Community Moderator Jim Dawson's Avatar
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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    That's not right. Maybe a call to Haas?



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    That doesn't sound right. It doesn't turn off if you press RESET, or use M74, or cycle power? Maybe the solenoid is stuck? Where is the air coming from, specifically? Straight down the spindle, like TSC would?

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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    I havent tried M74 (had to even look that one up) but its definitely coming from the spindle bearing area not the tool center. First thing I did was put a tool in thinking that would seal it.

    I talked to Haas and they said my researching was correct and I should only have that air moving for 60sec after the spindle starts for bearing lube but mine is constant from the moment after I initialize the machine. It also seems if I do nothing for like 30min or so it will stop, maybe some sleep mode I havent figured out yet? But as soon as I do something it kicks back on.

    They put me on the schedule for a tech to come out but of course that means I gotta wait again. As is, its probably fine while I'm learning but my poor air compressor is getting a big workout.



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas J View Post
    I havent tried M74 (had to even look that one up) but its definitely coming from the spindle bearing area not the tool center. First thing I did was put a tool in thinking that would seal it.

    I talked to Haas and they said my researching was correct and I should only have that air moving for 60sec after the spindle starts for bearing lube but mine is constant from the moment after I initialize the machine. It also seems if I do nothing for like 30min or so it will stop, maybe some sleep mode I havent figured out yet? But as soon as I do something it kicks back on.

    They put me on the schedule for a tech to come out but of course that means I gotta wait again. As is, its probably fine while I'm learning but my poor air compressor is getting a big workout.
    You may have a problem, but also could be normal

    You need a minimum of 15CFM and a 60 Gallon tank, or you won't have enough air to run the machine, it is normal for the air to be flowing through the spindle, it's only 15 PSI to 17 PSI but does shut off after a while as you have found, it supplies the lube to the spindle bearings, and keeps coolant out of the bearings

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Looking at the gauge, its sitting at 0psi for the spindle lube. It was that and the fact that its always on that the local Haas support thought it wasnt right. But if they come and say its normal, then I guess it is what it is...

    Specs call for around 4cfm (I have 5.5 @ 120psi) and 20gal (I have a 10gal compressor feeding a 10 gallon reservoir through a dryer). I know its not ideal, but its just to get me started for now. The goal is to eventually upgrade to a quincy 60gal 2stage but I'll need to sell a few more parts to get ahead before I can spend more money.



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Hi Dallas,

    Congratulations on your new VF2. That is a nice machine. Is it brand new from the factory with the HAAS Warranty or just new to you?

    I know nothing about the VF2 and how it is supposed to operate so you can take what I say with a gain of salt.

    I do however own a 2007 HAAS TM1P which I purchased new from HAAS and probably???? has a different air supply system.

    One of the few issues I have had was that it starting using and excessive amount of air. It has been quite a while and I can't remember all the details. If I remember correctly, there was a solenoid valve near the top of the spindle housing that supplied air during tool changes. Mine had a bad "O" Ring which caused the air leak. At the time they didn't offer a repair kit and I had to replace the solenoid. After replacing the solenoid it has ran fine.

    Probably not the same issue, but I thought I would share.

    Good luck with your new machine.

    BTW, I have a QT5 Quincy 5 hp Single Phase 220 volt air compressor with a 80 gallon tank that has served me well over the years.

    John

    2007 HAAS TM-1P OneCNC XR5 Mill Pro. Shopbot PRT running Mach3 2010 Screen Set, Super PID and PMDX Electronics.Check out my Gallery on: http://www.johnsmarinesolutions@gmail.com


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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas J View Post
    Looking at the gauge, its sitting at 0psi for the spindle lube. It was that and the fact that its always on that the local Haas support thought it wasnt right. But if they come and say its normal, then I guess it is what it is...

    Specs call for around 4cfm (I have 5.5 @ 120psi) and 20gal (I have a 10gal compressor feeding a 10 gallon reservoir through a dryer). I know its not ideal, but its just to get me started for now. The goal is to eventually upgrade to a quincy 60gal 2stage but I'll need to sell a few more parts to get ahead before I can spend more money.
    If the air is still flowing and the gauge is at 0 psi, then there is something wrong, is this a new machine or an old one, older machines have a different air requirement than the new machines

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Yep, the machine is brand new from Haas. Had a thought laying in bed that I should manual activate the spindle air solenoid and see if air comes out of the spindle or stops at the top.

    Either way, Im sure they'll be out soon to fix whatever it is. Glad I asked here though, hard to know whats right or wrong when its all new.



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas J View Post
    Yep, the machine is brand new from Haas. Had a thought laying in bed that I should manual activate the spindle air solenoid and see if air comes out of the spindle or stops at the top.

    Either way, Im sure they'll be out soon to fix whatever it is. Glad I asked here though, hard to know whats right or wrong when its all new.
    It will always be on when the spindle is running, also it comes on as soon as you home the machine, I did not check to see how long it stays on, but will check that too, new machines can have a few little start up problems

    Mactec54


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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas J View Post
    Yep, the machine is brand new from Haas. Had a thought laying in bed that I should manual activate the spindle air solenoid and see if air comes out of the spindle or stops at the top.

    Either way, Im sure they'll be out soon to fix whatever it is. Glad I asked here though, hard to know whats right or wrong when its all new.
    Since the machine is under warranty, resist any urge to "fix" anything to prevent the dealer from accusing you of damaging something or making things worse. This goes for any kind of trouble that may arise during your warranty period; hopefully you will not have any though.

    As others have mentioned, the spindle air should turn on when the spindle starts and should shut off a few minutes after it stops if sitting idle; you should also have a pressure reading when the air is flowing. By your descriptions, it's obvious something is not right and I am quite sure your dealer will make things right.

    Once the tech shows up, specifically ask is there is oil and air getting to the spindle in its current condition, and ask to see how he is getting his results if yes. If no oil has been getting to the spindle be sure that your service report documents this well in case you have any spindle issues down the road. It's probably just fine since you are just getting started, but better to cover yourself for any potential issues down the road.

    Good luck and be sure to report back what you find out.



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas J View Post
    Looking at the gauge, its sitting at 0psi for the spindle lube. It was that and the fact that its always on that the local Haas support thought it wasnt right. But if they come and say its normal, then I guess it is what it is...

    Specs call for around 4cfm (I have 5.5 @ 120psi) and 20gal (I have a 10gal compressor feeding a 10 gallon reservoir through a dryer). I know its not ideal, but its just to get me started for now. The goal is to eventually upgrade to a quincy 60gal 2stage but I'll need to sell a few more parts to get ahead before I can spend more money.
    I found part of your problem. You have a machine that needs approximately 4cfm and a compressor that under ideal conditions, pumps 5.5 cfm. That compressor is going to pump almost non-stop when the machine is running. If you add air hose usage, it may not ever shut off when the machine is running. We made it up to 3 Haas machines, (1 SL-10 lathe, a Mini Mill, and a VF2), with a 5HP, 80 gallon, 18cfm, Ingersoll compressor before we invested in a 10HP, 120 gallon compressor. Given just the Mini Mill and the SL-10, we were having to rebuild the pump on the compressor about once a year, and the copper air line from the head to the tank needed to be replaced 2 to 3 times a year, as it would crack from heat/vibration. When we added the VF2, we bought the 10HP compressor within 2 months, as the poor Ingersoll could barely keep up with the 3 machines and misc. air nozzle usage.

    As to the gauge on the back of the machine that is reading 0... The way it was explained to me a few years back, it will only read pressure when the lube pump, pumps. And that pump is timed to pump periodically. I think every 15 to 20 minutes, if I remember correctly. The air that you hear is there, not only to help lubricate the machine, but to keep positive pressure in the spindle while it is running. The positive pressure helps to keep coolant out, as the last thing you want is water-based coolant in your spindle bearings. The air, however, should shutoff after a period of time, after the spindle shuts off, and the machine is idle. All of our machines seem to vary in that period of time, from about 1 minute to 5 minutes. As soon as you turn the spindle back on, do a tool change, or move the axes via program, the air will be back on again.

    You were able to afford a new VF2, at $45K plus with freight/rigging but possibly more with options, a $1K compressor shouldn't be too much of a stretch. Even better, keep an eye on auctions or the local newspaper/craigslist, as there are always used compressors that can be had for much less than new. We got our 10HP compressor at auction for less than the cost of a new 5HP compressor.

    Congrats on the new machine! Happy chip-making!

    Mike



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Quote Originally Posted by Dallas J View Post
    Looking at the gauge, its sitting at 0psi for the spindle lube. It was that and the fact that its always on that the local Haas support thought it wasnt right. But if they come and say its normal, then I guess it is what it is...

    Specs call for around 4cfm (I have 5.5 @ 120psi) and 20gal (I have a 10gal compressor feeding a 10 gallon reservoir through a dryer). I know its not ideal, but its just to get me started for now. The goal is to eventually upgrade to a quincy 60gal 2stage but I'll need to sell a few more parts to get ahead before I can spend more money.
    I have a Quincy 60 gal. Great compressor, but I wish I'd got an 80 gal. If your VF-2 spits out air constantly thru the bearings when running, I'd recommend at least the 80 gallon. I have a Omniturn lathe that runs air constantly to prevent coolant entering the bearings, though I don't use coolant, just an oil mister. My compressor runs quite often when running that little machine. Also have a Haas TM-1 and it eats air when changing tools and spitting out minimum volume oil coolant mist. I think an 80 would run a lot less, for less noise.

    Best of luck with your new VF-2. Buddy of mine just bought a new VF-2. Can't wait to see it when he gets it. Awesome machine; saw one in use at the Seattle Haas demo day back in May.



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    I certainly can "afford" to have a new compressor delivered, but bigger is bigger (duh) and louder than the California air tools compressor. Running the VF2 a few days now I would guess its about 25% duty cycle, probably more than optimal but I can run this thing till it fails and not feel bad about it. The bigger issue with mine is the lack of a cooler and auto-drain so I'm feeding a 2nd tank through an accumulator/dryer.Haas came out and they made some calls to Haas directly and even they weren't sure if its doing what its suppose to or not. So for now theyre looking into it but its just fine to run as is. How loud would you say the Quincy compressor is?



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    Default Re: New VF2, Spindle air always on and draining air tank

    Pretty loud. I'm considering building some sort of soundproofing foam box around my 60 gal. I suppose the 80 gallon couldn't be a whole lot louder.



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